[D&D Design Discussion] Preserving the "Sweet Spot"

painandgreed

First Post
Wulf Ratbane said:
How do you extend the "sweet spot?"

Where would you "cap" the game?

And how would you do it in such a way as to give the players the same "real time" rate of advancement/improvement as the current rules provide?

My plan is to try a different XP chart and go to an exponential climb. Doubleing the Xp needed for each level is a little much. I'm looking at making it 1000 Xp for 2nd level and then x1.6 for each level after that. That means for a bit quicker climb in the first couple of levels but then becoming longer between levels later. So, I wouldn't cap, but rather just slow down the rate of advancement at higher levels. A good deal of the trouble with high level play isn't the play or powers itself, but rather the DM and the players are given too much too quickly. Slow it down and I think that it will be easier to handle.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Wulf Ratbane

Adventurer
GlassJaw said:
A low-magic ruleset does address many of these issues but I don't think it's necessarily a low-magic vs high-magic/standard D&D decision.

Nope, it's not really a low-magic issue. I have no problem with the style and feel of the normal, full-on, magic-infused Dungeons and Dragons-- up through about 10th level.

Maybe I need to restate the design challenge just to clarify my own thoughts.

1) The rules and options available will dictate the style and feel of your game.

2) You want to capture the feel of the "sweet spot" play-- about 1st-10th.

3) You want your campaign to last, in real time, about the same amount of time as a normal "Adventure Path" that covers 1st-20th.

but here's the kicker:

4) When you stretch out the amount of time it takes to get from 1st to 10th level, you must still provide the same pace of regular character advancement ("cookies") as normal play. If your players are accustomed to levelling up once every 3rd session or so, you still need to be providing them that same incentive pace.
 

Wulf Ratbane

Adventurer
painandgreed said:
My plan is to try a different XP chart and go to an exponential climb. Doubleing the Xp needed for each level is a little much. I'm looking at making it 1000 Xp for 2nd level and then x1.6 for each level after that. That means for a bit quicker climb in the first couple of levels but then becoming longer between levels later. So, I wouldn't cap, but rather just slow down the rate of advancement at higher levels. A good deal of the trouble with high level play isn't the play or powers itself, but rather the DM and the players are given too much too quickly. Slow it down and I think that it will be easier to handle.
Not picking on you, but that's exactly the approach I am talking about NOT doing. Just slowing down the rate of XP doesn't work, because it doesn't provide the players with the regular feedback of advancement to keep the game interesting.

(And I mean advancement in a Gamist sense. Ignore this comment if you don't know what I mean. Fnord.)
 

Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games
I've heard that for a lot of DMs the game starts to feel out of their control once spellcasters get to levels where "travel" spells come into play and then definitely feels unwieldy when "save or die" spells are most prevalent. There are a few other things DMs sometimes mention (the increased need to be quick with mathematics, for instance) but those seem to be the primary two, from what I have heard and read. To many, it simply seems like such a very different game that it doesn't integrate well with what they have planned during earlier levels. I think that some (optional?) rules to adjust those spells (and related effects) might make it easier for those DMs who prefer low- through mid-level play but would definitely irk those who regularly enjoy (and even prefer) high level play. It may be something that is best handled as rules adjustments for particular settings (e.g. In the world of blah-blah there is no planar travel because no other planes exist, teleportation works dangerously strange, and any type of death magic brings on only a death-like state that . . .). Just a few thoughts.
 

Hussar

Legend
At the higher levels, the DM may have a wide range of encounters in which to challenge the party but the nature of the challenges changes. In high-level play, the numbers are much larger overall so the game plays slower. Also, with spells that Wulf mentioned, it becomes more difficult to preserve story elements or even maintain certain plots. For example, just read the outlines of the three Adventure Paths. They all invariably end up with the characters plane-hopping and teleporting as story arcs.

True, but, then again, Rapan Athuk and the World's Largest Dungeon do not and both go up into the high teens for levels.

You don't necessarily have to do the planar hopping bit at high levels, but, then again, at high levels you can. It's always nice to get some traction out of those spells that don't get used a lot.

I would point out that this trend of planar hopping at high levels certainly isn't anything new either. Queen of the Demonweb Pits and Isle of the Ape jump to mind. I think it gets to the point where the players are so powerful, that it's maybe a good idea to broaden their horizons a bit.

However, it's still a pain in the butt to create adventures for. :)

There is another option. Simply restart campaigns at "name" level. I've found it takes me about 4 to 6 sessions to gain a level, which means that a 10 level campaign would last me about a year. That's not a bad run for a campaign. Run for a year and then try something new. Keeps things fresh at least.
 

GlassJaw

Hero
Wulf Ratbane said:
1) The rules and options available will dictate the style and feel of your game.

Correct. You basically have to determine the "end-game" style you want to establish and then work backwards. Once you have done that, you can also determine the pace of advancement and the pace at which the characters gain new abilities.

True, but, then again, Rapan Athuk and the World's Largest Dungeon do not and both go up into the high teens for levels.

You don't necessarily have to do the planar hopping bit at high levels, but, then again, at high levels you can.

While I don't think using two massive dungeon crawls is a good example, you are correct.

However, even if you your high-level campaign is of the planar variety, the options available at that level still dictate the style of the campaign, even if they don't dictate the story arc itself. You still have things like Raise Dead and Commune as Wulf mentioned. Spells like that go a long way in establishing what constitutes a challege.
 

Kid Charlemagne

I am the Very Model of a Modern Moderator
Is the goal to extend the time spent playing 1-10, or is the goal to extend the sweet spot so that it continues into later levels? Is that second option even possible? I think my response would be to try to re-imagine those items that are too "wahoo" for you - I think those are things like teleport, raise dead, etc, as well. Then maybe you could continue to capture the sweet spot feel while continuing to advance all the way to 20th level. This could be accomplished by capping those "wahoo" areas, while leaving the other bits intact (which a lot of people already do).
 

Dorloran

First Post
Man, am I glad to see this thread! It hits on THE problem that my group and I have been struggling with ever since we finished the RttTEE about two years ago.

Here are some thoughts I have had, in no particular order.

Start PCs at 1st level, but give them 5th level hit points. That’s all they ever get, then, unless they take feats (Toughness), raise their CON, etc. I think that this would open up the range of encounters for characters and the DM would not be so beholden to EL or CR. You wouldn’t have to worry about wiping out the low level party, an Ancient Red Dragon would really be horrific, but it could still be placed in the bullpen of monsters available to fight, really pushing the characters to use their wits to overcome it.

Cap character advancement at around 6th or 7th level, when classes get most of their good perks. PCs would not advance beyond that, though you might use something like the Epic level concept of still allowing feat selection as characters progress. You could also make a tweak to the spell casting rules to allow for finding, learning, and casting the odd high-level spell, though at great risk (can you say, Spell Burn??)

You could slow down progression using a different XP chart (like the one in the Wilderlands campaign, that more closely mimics 1E/2E advancement). This solution seems inelegant, though, especially if used alone.

I have always wondered why skill DC increases with CR while skill points increase too. I go up a level, I increase my ranks in certain skills. But the DC goes up by level, too, until you have a DC/skill rank arms race. Having been raised on both 1E and 2E, I still cringe when the rogue calls out, “I got a 34 on my Search for traps roll.” That’s just too high. Why not keep the Search DC for a secret door at, say, 20, and have slow down the skill rank progression? If you wanted to keep the mechanic of increasing ranks in certain skills, it should be retained only for character development purposes (I ran into Gord, and he showed me a thing or two about disabling poison needle traps). The bonuses would remain low, though.

The DND Basic Game has an interesting approach to this problem, I think. The DCs remain pretty static, but so do the skill ranks. All the rank/bonuses are given at character creation. Elves get bonuses in Search, etc. Humans get a +2 to any single skill. Rogues, the masters of skills, get a +4 bonus to everything. Etc. You could raise numbers through feats, increased ability scores.

Actually, the above is the same for AC. My BAB goes up, my opponent’s AC goes up. Why is that necessary? I ran some numbers back in 2E. I took what I considered the most common monsters PCs would encounter at 1st, 3rd, 9th, 12th, etc. levels and tried to figure the chances that a fighter, thief, cleric, and MU would have to hit at each level. The percentage remained pretty much the same. So again, why the numbers race? If I get a +15 to hit at 15th level, and the monster’s AC is up to 30, that gives me a 30% chance to hit. If I’m first level with a +1 and the monster’s AC is 16, that gives me a 30% chance to hit. Why this illusion of progress? (Maybe a similar study would be interesting for 3.5E.)

Although, I agree that leveling up is important and players need rewards of some kind. Maybe a reward in Status or Reputation, a role playing reward rather than a mechanical, numerical reward?

What we’ve been struggling with is keeping mid-level play, which we agree is the most interesting and challenging and most fun to DM, yet still having a system that allows character growth, customization, and rewards for the players. Gee, that seems pretty simple…?
 

Kid Charlemagne

I am the Very Model of a Modern Moderator
Mark CMG said:
I've heard that for a lot of DMs the game starts to feel out of their control once spellcasters get to levels where "travel" spells come into play and then definitely feels unwieldy when "save or die" spells are most prevalent.

To this I would add the ability to raise the dead - so three categories of spells - Travel spells, Raising the Dead, and Save or Die. I don't think there's any strong reason (beyond tradition, which is a strong force) to have any of those three things in the game. Not meaning that they're bad, but rather that you could pull them out without losing any of what I think is essential to a fantasy RPG (for example, fireball-ish spells ARE vital to the genre, in my view). These things could be taken out of the spell lists and added to a category of "very rare" magics - powerful rituals, requiring unique and very rare components, etc. Maybe you can't Plane Shift - but you can find a portal that will allow you to traverse the planes. You can't Raise Dead - but you can quest to the land of the dead to bring your dead friend back (and in the meantime adopt rules systems that make death less common, perhaps).
 

Mallus

Legend
Wulf Ratbane said:
When you stretch out the amount of time it takes to get from 1st to 10th level, you must still provide the same pace of regular character advancement ("cookies") as normal play. If your players are accustomed to levelling up once every 3rd session or so, you still need to be providing them that same incentive pace.
Does this have to be some form of mechanical advancement? What about characters accruing influence, enemies, a greater engagement with the setting?

There's a big difference between a 10th level fighter and a 10th level fighter who commands an army embroiled in a civil war.

I guess to do agree that character development needs a mechanical component, even if its just new items. Like Pavlov's dogs, D&D players are trained to expect that --and I count myself among the dogs, despite how much I claim to interested in "story".

Here's what I'm planning to do w/the game I currently run. The party's 9th level. The setting isn't really set up to accomodate epic-style play. So I'm just going to cut down the XP awards, and hopefully I can make up for it in other areas.
 

Remove ads

Top