Mark CMG said:
One being that there are a great number of players (DMs included) that don't look at RPGing as a "story" per se. I like to think that I am more of a story-wrangler, myself, in that when all is said and done, what has ultimately unfolded is a tale of sorts.
I like to think of myself as more of a story sundae artist, where a satisfying story is the cherry on top of an enormous, sloppy, treasure-drizzled scoop of dead bad guys.
Anyhow-- instead of story, maybe I should have said "continuity?" A sense of "ownership" or "investment" in the character?
But a lot of gamers really do play the game as a series of unending challenges that get progressively tougher (mathematically) and simply gathering resources to face them is the goal (including "life-restoring" magic).
Guilty...
If part of the goal with 4E (and I know we aren't specifcally discussing that here but I think it is germane) is to attract more of those types of players (away from their computer-based games), then I think we will see more of that sort of design.
I agree it's germane. I also see it as a pretty natural evolution from 3e. As far as I am concerned 3e is pretty clearly designed for that kind of "Gamist" experience. It
can serve adequately for Narrativist or Simulationist games, of course; but then again I'll use my vice grips to pound a nail when my hammer isn't handy.
painandgreed said:
Then how about adding new things in there to advance in. There are other things like reputation, status, and social standing that can be hard to be advanced and can have noticable values and effects, yet aren't always related to XP or level.
I am not sure you can "design" cookies (or is it carrots now? Carrots is good too...) along these lines. I am not saying that perks like this can't exist or won't appeal to certain kinds of players, but again I think it's a round peg/square hole kind of thing with respect to the design of d20.
I can't imagine, for example, an entry on the 3rd level bard table that says, "You gain a Romantic Interest!"
By "can't imagine it" I mean it doesn't seem to be a meaningful carrot when you look at it alongside new spells, feats, BAB, skill points, and other "tangible" mechanics. It doesn't "fit" inside the established (gamist) mechanics (the level playing field) of Dungeons and Dragons.
About the time they slow down in normal advancement would be about the time that they would begin to want lands, title, and minstrels singing their names.
I guess 1e was a lot better with regards to awarding this kind of advancement; but again, it's not really a tangible mechanic so it's pretty hard to design or codify.