[D&D Design Discussion] Preserving the "Sweet Spot"

[Wulf Ratbane]

I like it when the D20 becomes meaningless.

You're not my friend anymore.

 

[jmucchiello]

As levels increase, one of two things happens:

1) The d20 becomes less and less relevant as a means of conflict resolution. Other (non-Gamist) means of conflict resolution come to the forefront.

or

2) The relevance of the d20 is preserved by scaling the DCs (and challenges in other forms) in proportion to the heroes. This kills verisimilitude-- the world should not adapt to accomodate the heroes.

You see, I disagree with this premise. The means of conflict resolution is not affected at high levels. The type of conflicts is what changes. You don't send James Bond into an accounting firm to find irregularities in tax calculations. You don't read about King Arthur and the Quest to Darn his Wholy Socks.

The default assumption of the game is that the PCs go from nobodies to univrese-movers-and-shakers. Once you hit 10th level you no longer guard the caravan against bandits. Your story requires wider scope, grander scale. The game system demonstrates this by making fixed DC actions automatic. What you call a flaw I call a design feature. At some point the locked door becomes irrelevant. The players get to see their character attain a little bit of badass. The 1 HD orc is no longer fearsome.

I wasn't being argumentative about higher level spells. If you really want to make skills relevant at even higher levels, you have to deal next with 6th level spells. And so on. I don't see it working short of eliminating the higher level spells. I didn't realize this was threadjacking. I thought you really wanted to change the game without changing magic and preserving your nebulous sweetspot. But if all you are going to do is nerf high level spells, you aren't fixing the design.

The design is fine. It allows for automatic success. Automatic success is in the rules. In fact, the RAW has rules to avoid needless skill checks. The rogue can take 10 to open locks. The designers of the game put this into the game to avoid needless skill checks and get on with the meat of the game. At high levels, you no longer have open locks meat unless you import the good stuff. No, high level games move into a differ palette of flavors. (Okay, the food analogy is making me sick. I'll stop.)

Oh, and the world does not change to accomodate the growing power of the party. No, the party just can go into those parts of the campaign tha use to be marked "here there be dragons". If the 1st level party wanders into the lich's lair, they die. The lair is always there with its DC40 locks and DC40 fiendish traps. The difference is, the 10th+ level party might be ready to deal with it. The traps didn't get harder. Harder traps just became more likely to be encountered. How does this break versimilitude?

 

[Nellisir]

To be fair, I'm sure "puzzle lock" in this context refers to something like a Chinese puzzle box. Opening the box is a puzzle. Solving the puzzle opens the lock. It does not refer to password riddles. If it did, Open Locks would be an Int-based skill.

Yes, exactly. A puzzle lock, yes. No problems there. But the door into Moria isn't a "puzzle lock", per se. It's a riddle. Decipher Script + a use for ranks in Speak Language.

Moot anyways; I thought Anondson was being serious but good-humored with the , but apparently he was being sarcastic. Or something that I wasn't supposed to take literally.

 

[Nellisir]

Did you even see the [ ] I put in there?

*sigh* *shakes head* I know it is a can of worms issue, I was being playful.

My bad. I did see it; I thought it was your way of putting a good-humored spin on a serious point.


Nell.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

although ranged touch attacks for wizards at high levels are "don't roll a '1'" affairs. This could be corrected by having the wizard use his or her actual BAB + Dex instead of having the modifier be caster level + relevant casting class ability score.

As stated previously....you got that one horribly wrong.

Ranged Touch Attack=(BAB+Dex Mod) vs. Touch AC of target. Add in an extra -4 if the target is in melee with someone else, which it normally is when I am firing them off.

DS

 

[BryonD]

You're not my friend anymore.

Anymore? Crap, I went and missed it.

Seriously, this thread started off with some good thoughts and then kinda went off course.

What are your thoughts for making the D20 stay meaningful for level 15 characters without changing the world around them? Do you change the mechanics of the rolls? the modifiers? the DCs (apparently not, since this is part of the issue)? Just story changes? Other?

 

[Stalker0]

Another idea would be for wizards to upgrade slots instead of recieving so many of them.

One of the differences between high level wizards and low level ones is that high level wizard don't run out of spells as often. If you upgrade slots, while wizards get more powerful magics the amount of resources they have avaiable remains the same as in the sweet spot.

 

[Dorloran]

OK, so let me see if I understand something.

Skill points increase as characters level, and DCs increase by CR. So, as according to the DMG, a DC 21 trap in a CR 4 dungeon is now DC 25. Skill points increase, DCs increase, they cancel each other out, so that's a wash.

As my BAB increases by level, so do my opponents' AC--they cancel each other out, so that's a wash, too.

My Save bonuses increase as I level up, but so do the DCs. That's a wash.

My HPs increase as I level up, but so does the damage. Wash.

If we call these elements a wash, then, what's that leave us to work with? Do we still level up our PCs? If we do, what gets better? Is there a way to work the DND system with rewards other than increasing numbers? Are there other types of rewards that would keep players totally in what Wulf has defined as the Sweet Spot while giving them a sense of acheivement? Are there other ways to allow the Heroic PC to influence his or her world in more and more profound ways while the world remains challenging? Through continued accumlation of Feats? Action Points?

 

[BryonD]

Hey Joe,

I can see both sides of this. I completely agree with the way you are describing the game and high level play. I have and will play that way.

But I also like to play in games where there isn't a lich lair around every corner. I don't understand why there is a need to debate whether or not this alternate approach is acceptable. If you think we are stupid to play this way then you must be right. Good enough?

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Skill points increase, DCs increase, they cancel each other out, so that's a wash.

As my BAB increases by level, so do my opponents' AC--they cancel each other out, so that's a wash, too.

My Save bonuses increase as I level up, but so do the DCs. That's a wash.

My HPs increase as I level up, but so does the damage. Wash.

These truly wash when they increase equally. Do they? I don't believe they do.

The thing about save bonuses, even if they increase, the danger doesn't wash when it is a save or die effect even when the DC stays even with the save bonus increase rate.