[D&D Design Discussion] Preserving the "Sweet Spot"

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

Achilles had a tender heel,
and Balder his missile-toe.
Grendel grappled and lost an arm,
and to his momma he did go.

Gandalf stumped by a silly riddle
till a halfling's words revealed.
Boromir blew his will save
and so his fate was sealed.

The Nazgul tanked a Spot check
On Eowyn's feminine charms,
All marvel at Gollum's precious balance
And how he bought the farm.

Han Solo failed a bluff check,
when tumblin' Ani croaked.
Leia sensed Tarkin's motive and lied,
and Alderaan got smoked.

No matter how l33t you are,
Or what level you've achieved,
Or your lightsaber reads 'BMF'
and you've grandiose plans conceived.

Even the best of 'em sometimes roll a '1',
Wtih results humorous and tragic.
The lowly orc a '20' can score
and make a hero haemorrhagic.

Thank you thank you, you've been a lovely audience. Be sure to try the veal, and if you can, catch my act at GenCon. Peace out!

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Other challenges should rise to match the hero's abilities, but not every, or most, challenges. That's where we get to an almost "low magic" argument, because the best climber, swimmer, jumper, lockpicker, etc. is redundant next to a wizard with the right spell.

Certainly magic can be used to do magical things. Water walk and water breathing (3rd levels) can negate need for Swim, spider climb (Drd 2, Sor 2) can negate Climb, fly (Sor 3, Travel 3) can negate Jump, freedom of movement (4th level) can negate Escape Artist, a hat of disguise can negate need of Disguise, knock (2nd level) can negate need of Open Locks. And when there is a possibility of enough preparation and availability of appropriate magic there ends up being little to challenge PCs besides mental puzzles to foil players.

Yet there are still moments when PCs don't get the preparation, these spells above lose possibility of being the factor they could be. But there are only so many times the DM can throw surprise at PCs before it gets old and unfun.

Maybe a factor in the sweet spot, with regards to skill challenges, is the amount of preparation and aiding that PCs are allowed?

 

[Particle_Man]

Hmmm...maybe Iron Heroes (sans ARcanist) can preserve the sweet spot precisely because there is no guaranteed access to magic or magic weapons.

 

[DaveMage]

I think it's already been said in the thread, but preserving the "sweet spot" as defined may best be handled by capping allocated skill points in some way (max. 10 ranks or so per skill). Now this number could still be affected by magic items, ability scores, etc., but 12th level characters (for example) couldn't have 16 ranks in a skill.

The d20 roll would still very valuable for skills this way.

Combat scales (IME) in such a way that mostly preserves the relevancy of the d20 regardless of level, although ranged touch attacks for wizards at high levels are "don't roll a '1'" affairs. This could be corrected by having the wizard use his or her actual BAB + Dex instead of having the modifier be caster level + relevant casting class ability score.


I'm also curious, Wulf, how does Grim Tales perform at high (15-20) levels? Are you satisfied with that high level game experience?

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

If you think success should be automatic, you're in the wrong thread. Period. This is me, politely showing the high level fans the door, again.

Challenges of a certain level should be practically automatic. Heck, a first level rogue can automatically pick a normal lock - its just a matter of taking 20. I don't see a need to create a chance of failure there.

And I don't think the LoTR example was a terribly good one - after all, the rogues failed and had to leave it to the Epic Level Wizard to solve.

 

[mmadsen]

As levels increase, one of two things happens:

1) The d20 becomes less and less relevant as a means of conflict resolution. Other (non-Gamist) means of conflict resolution come to the forefront.

or

2) The relevance of the d20 is preserved by scaling the DCs (and challenges in other forms) in proportion to the heroes. This kills verisimilitude-- the world should not adapt to accomodate the heroes.

A low to mid levels the d20 mechanic is preserved AND there is a sense of verisimilitude in the challenges the heroes face. This is the definition of the "sweet spot."

I believe we can rephrase your point: As the heroes getting better, either the obstacles stop challenging them, or the obstacles get harder and harder, which isn't realistic.

I don't believe the heroes can get better and better without that issue arising -- unless they don't actually get better and better, but, say, get good at a broader and broader set of skills.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Combat scales (IME) in such a way that mostly preserves the relevancy of the d20 regardless of level

Yes it does, although I don't know that I wouldn't be happier if everything stayed in the same range as "very difficult" skills-- ie, both AC's and total AB's cap out in the 30-35 range.

, although ranged touch attacks for wizards at high levels are "don't roll a '1'" affairs. This could be corrected by having the wizard use his or her actual BAB + Dex instead of having the modifier be caster level + relevant casting class ability score.

Err, one of us has been playing the wrong way. We've always made ranged touch attacks with BAB + Dex.

I'm also curious, Wulf, how does Grim Tales perform at high (15-20) levels? Are you satisfied with that high level game experience?

Yeah, but that's a whole different ball of wax. I have a lot more control over what kinds of game-breaking wahoo make it into the campaign, by GT design.

 

[BryonD]

I like it when the D20 becomes meaningless.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Water walk and water breathing (3rd levels) can negate need for Swim, spider climb (Drd 2, Sor 2) can negate Climb, fly (Sor 3, Travel 3) can negate Jump, freedom of movement (4th level) can negate Escape Artist, a hat of disguise can negate need of Disguise, knock (2nd level) can negate need of Open Locks.

Those spells really don't render skills irrelevant at the levels in the sweet spot. Sure if you have knock prepared you don't need a rogue. But if you are 4th level, there's a serious opportunity cost involved in having knock instead of something else. Similarly for the other spells. Now once you are throwing around 8th level spells, then sure, there is plenty of room for these utility spells to fill up your lower level slots. But up to level 10 or so you can't just dispense with the skills without significant cost.

So how do you extend the sweet spot without neutering the magic system? It would be nice to ensure that at some level there is an equilibrium between what spellcasters can do with their lower level slots and what the skilled PCs can do. Have spells work better than skills when they are the highest level spell the caster can use, but fall behind as the skilled user gains levels (and keeps their scores maxed out). Maybe knock can only open locks with a DC of 25 or lower. A wizard can exceed the rogue as long as both are 3rd level. But when they are 18th level, the knock is just a cheap parlor trick. Maybe spider climb works like the Climb description says (+8 bonus, can take 10 even when threatened) and not like the spell description says. And so on.

Matching or exceeding spellcasters in a number of areas would be a decent goal for skilled PCs to have. If the rogue can climb better than the spider climbing wizard, and open locks that the wizard's knock won't touch, then that's pretty good. If he can also win long term allies with Diplomacy that the wizard can't get with charm monster, then things are really looking up. Magic might provide another chance if the rogue fails the roll, or it might provide short term benefit, but skills should be more stable and reliable in the long run.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I believe we can rephrase your point: As the heroes getting better, either the obstacles stop challenging them, or the obstacles get harder and harder, which isn't realistic.

That is a terribly good rephrase.

I don't believe the heroes can get better and better without that issue arising.

Again, that's my definition of the sweet spot. At the low levels, given the variance of the d20 roll, "average-tough stuff" is just inside "impossible." And at the high levels, the "average stuff" is just inside "foregone conclusion."