WotC D&D Historian Ben Riggs says the OGL fiasco was Chris Cocks idea.

Oofta

Legend
While also admitting that the game is "under-monetized" and that they want to create a recurring spending environment, utilizing assets that are specific to their VTT (e.g. a virtual gold dragon mini) all in an effort to move people over to the digitized play area they're making, rather than the tabletop. That we know they want people to not only play digitally, but to do so using their platform, isn't in question; I really don't understand why people think they're going to try and encourage people to do that. Are you under the impression that WotC will finish designing the VTT and then sit back and not do anything to entice people into using it?

No one said it was "shocking." I'm not at all sure why you think there's some element of surprise to this (if there was, that was pretty much blown when they told us what they were planning to do).

I shouldn't have to point out that this is a strawman, since I'm not talking about "forcing" anything, and haven't throughout the course of this thread. Please try and answer the issues that I've raised, and not the caricature raised by some other posters.

No one has suggested otherwise.

Leaving aside the "relatively" cheap aspect, you're just reiterating things which aren't in contention, for reasons I'm not clear on.

See above. "Forcing" isn't an issue under discussion.

You're already closing in on using "force" a half-dozen times. How many times have I used that in previous posts? Because it's less than this.

Or a debate perspective, since "forcing" people isn't what's being discussed.

As long as we're unilaterally deciding what is and isn't an issue, I'll go ahead and say that something something naming what industry a company is part of is a non-issue.

Well, if you don't see it, then it clearly must be fine.

Especially if they try to make supplementary aspects of the game funnel people toward those tools, despite those tools not having the same scope of interface as imaginative play. Of course, not every other company deals in imaginative play, so that makes comparing it to every other company kind of pointless, but I suppose we can declare that a non-issue also.

No one suggested they wouldn't, the same way no one suggested anyone would be "forced" online. Given how you're replying to so many points I never raised, I'm curious if you meant to reply to someone else?

And I'm given to understand the acid in the paper is less than before, or so I heard, so clearly that drives a stake through the heart of their attempts to further monetize the game digitally. Because if we list a bunch of stuff WotC is doing that we like, it means that the stuff we don't is negated.

So your response boils down to: they want to make money and ... well I'm not sure what.

That's the issue. You state that you're just raising concerns but all you can do is quote something said a few years ago. There is no game content online that you need to pay for that is not available in books that I know of.

They tried a movie, dabbled in streaming shows, they're building a competitor to other VTTs while still supporting the competition and opened up DDB to 3PP. That's it. There is no bogeyman hiding under the sheets waiting to steal your money. I will never use the VTT, but they're taking a different approach than other VTTs and it may make sense for some people to use it. Just like DDB is worth the money for me.

Since they can't force us to buy their services the only possible risk is that they put out something really cool that I think is worth spending money on. Just like every other retail company in the world.
 

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Alzrius

The EN World kitten
So your response boils down to: they want to make money and ... well I'm not sure what.
Which suggests that you didn't really read my response.
That's the issue.
No, it's really not.
You state that you're just raising concerns
Which is correct.
but all you can do is quote something said a few years ago.
Wait, so there's an expiration date on things WotC says? I mean, I guess that explains why they thought their promises about the OGL no longer applied. Can you clarify precisely when we should stop listening to what they've said?
There is no game content online that you need to pay for that is not available in books that I know of.
No one is suggesting otherwise, the same way that no one has said that anyone will be "forced" online. It would really help the discussion if you responded to the points I actually brought up, rather than making up ones I didn't mention.
They tried a movie, dabbled in streaming shows, they're building a competitor to other VTTs while still supporting the competition and opened up DDB to 3PP.
Yeah, and they wanted to try a TV show, and have made several boardgames, and a whole bunch of other things that aren't relevant to what we're discussing. Should we list several more tangents that don't have anything to do with the topic at hand?
That's it.
No, I'm pretty sure that's not "it," where "it" is the totality of what they're doing.
There is no bogeyman hiding under the sheets waiting to steal your money.
You realize that hyperbole doesn't make for a correct reiteration of my point any more than incorrect attributions does, right?
I will never use the VTT, but they're taking a different approach than other VTTs and it may make sense for some people to use it. Just like DDB is worth the money for me.
That's nice. I'm not sure why you're mentioning that, or how it applies to anything said here, but good for you.
Since they can't force us to buy their services
Ah, and we're back to arguing against the "force" point that I never raised. And here I thought you'd be able to get through a whole post without using that one.
the only possible risk is that they put out something really cool that I think is worth spending money on.
No, that's not the only other possible risk.
Just like every other retail company in the world.
You seem to be under this impression that something is okay because everyone else does it. Something something if everyone jumped off a cliff.
 


Oofta

Legend
Which suggests that you didn't really read my response.

No, it's really not.

Which is correct.

Wait, so there's an expiration date on things WotC says? I mean, I guess that explains why they thought their promises about the OGL no longer applied. Can you clarify precisely when we should stop listening to what they've said?

No one is suggesting otherwise, the same way that no one has said that anyone will be "forced" online. It would really help the discussion if you responded to the points I actually brought up, rather than making up ones I didn't mention.

Yeah, and they wanted to try a TV show, and have made several boardgames, and a whole bunch of other things that aren't relevant to what we're discussing. Should we list several more tangents that don't have anything to do with the topic at hand?

No, I'm pretty sure that's not "it," where "it" is the totality of what they're doing.

You realize that hyperbole doesn't make for a correct reiteration of my point any more than incorrect attributions does, right?

That's nice. I'm not sure why you're mentioning that, or how it applies to anything said here, but good for you.

Ah, and we're back to arguing against the "force" point that I never raised. And here I thought you'd be able to get through a whole post without using that one.

No, that's not the only other possible risk.

You seem to be under this impression that something is okay because everyone else does it. Something something if everyone jumped off a cliff.
I see a lot of "your wrong" and no "this is what the problem is" others than vague claims.

What exactly is the issue?
 

TiQuinn

Registered User
Even if WotC somehow forced everyone online, they can't erase the books we already have on the shelf and other TTRPGs still haven't gone away. I'm sure the people over at PF would like another chance to take some of D&D's lunch money, along with several others.

For the sake of discussion, is it fair to say that we’re obviously not talking about previously released versions? Like, no one is contesting that, I think.
 


Clint_L

Legend
Oh, no, not a subscription, no.
But what if there was content that was only available through a paid subscription? What's the issue with that? When I subscribed to Dragon magazine, I got official content that wasn't available elsewhere.

I should get extra stuff for my paid subscription. It's why I have a paid subscription! I get the encounter builder, maps, can freely share all my purchases with my players, etc.
 

I know they're online but I didn't think you needed a paid subscription for those.

I could be wrong. 🤷
I don't think any books need a subscription to access on Beyond if you actually own them. They need a subscription to share though.

I do think a real and valid concern would be if WotC started publishing actual game material to only Beyond and/or the 3D VTT - i.e. classes, species, adventures, and so on. Especially as such material isn't available in PDF format (unless they changed course on that at the same time, in which case not a big deal). But that hasn't happened yet. The fact that it might does make me more cautious about overinvesting in 5E as times goes on. I was a lot less cautious, say, 5 years ago.

I also think when Beyond gets taken down, if WotC doesn't revoke its attitude to PDFs or a similar format, and doesn't let people permanently download what they bought (no app is ever permanent, because you can't really back them up or guarantee they'll ever work again), then that'll cause absolute havoc - but that's probably at least 10 years from now and D&D will probably be more niche again by the time it happens.

Re: PF, yeah and that's part of why preserving the OGL was so important, and extending it to 2024 D&D, because that way, WotC has to live under the shadow of the blade - as all non-essential companies should have to under capitalism, frankly. If they're not under that shadow, the ghost of Adam Smith will be VERY ANGRY lol. Because people could effectively make their own D&D relatively easily, WotC have to think about whether they're going to piss off too many people by doing greedy and stupid things. Now, with the 3D VTT (but not with Beyond), they're trying to do an end-run around that by creating something that couldn't easily be replicated (or so they believe) and get people invested in it, but I'm very doubtful it's going to do the kind of numbers they expect it to.
 
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