D&D - Iron Heroes...between the poles

What is incredible powerful ? Do you think it means the same for you as for me ?

There is no such thing as "incredibly powerful PCs". I ran a Vampire chronicle of 7/8 years and authorized some players wanting to play methuselah, with the premise that they did have an idea on how to play one.

DMs are all powerful. If they choose so, it rains demi-liches from the sky and the 20th level party is wiped out (I'm not saying this is a good solution. It's not, but a DM could do so).

Therefore, there is no such thing as "incredibly powerful PCs". There is just things a dungeon master thinks he cannot deal with - either truly or falsely, depending of self-confidence and practice in running games. In either case, this can improve if the DM chooses so.
 
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Now that I've defended the concept of lower-powered games (which I love), I'll also step out and say that I really dig Iron Heroes, and am happy to have it, and don't find any serious problems with it.

But that is because I wasn't looking for a lower-powered game from it. The combat is more elaborate than D&D in most cases, but that's cool (especially if you like that kind of combat, which I do in many occasions).

In fact, I'm QUITE excited to be playing in the game of IH that Mike Mearls is running at GenCon. Going to be a BLAST.
 

HellHound said:
Once again, insulting your way through the thread. I'm glad to see that low-powered games is an intellectually devoid phrase... but it is still something I like - a game where the PCs can advance in power without getting incredibly powerful.

I guess the bone of contention when it comes to the subject is that some equate "low magic" to "low power." Yeah, I know Mike Mearls has avoided calling IH "low magic," but it is "low magic" in the respect that PCs have limited access to magic, in quantity and variety.

I've been thinking about it, and defining "high" and "low" power in a game is tough without simply using examples. Well, tough for me, anyway. My assumption, if you will, is that the terms apply to the power available to the PCs, rather than how prevalent or important magic/supernatural power is in the setting. Using this assumption, I'd say Call of Cthulhu, BRP or d20 version, would be low power. Iron Heroes, based on what I know of it at the moment, is high power, as is D&D. Between those two poles, I'd say the Conan RPG is "middle power."

Just rambling.
 

The way I see it, the flaw of seeing parties of PCs as "low powered" or "high powered" is that as a DM, you are seeing the capacities of players' characters as things that hinder you potentially as a DM. There would be like an invisible line of the amount of capacities PCs can have. This is seeing the DM-players relationship as a conflict where one has to have the upper hand on the other. This is an issue of control, and DMing isn't about control - it's about trust.
 

Odhanan said:
The way I see it, the flaw of seeing parties of PCs as "low powered" or "high powered" is that as a DM, you are seeing the capacities of players' characters as things that hinder you potentially as a DM. There would be like an invisible line of the amount of capacities PCs can have. This is seeing the DM-players relationship as a conflict where one has to have the upper hand on the other. This is an issue of control, and DMing isn't about control - it's about trust.


Why view it as a DM control issue? I've played characters in games that I'd consider low-powered - CoC, for example - and games that are high-powered - various iterations of friends' D&D campaigns - and there is definitely a distinction beyond DM/player conflict. My CoC characters felt relatively helpless; I knew they were much less capable than my D&D characters in almost any sense. I suppose one could talk about context, but that would still entail acknowledging that one game was more geared to a higher "power" level than another.
 

nothing to see here said:
So I bought Iron Heroes...haven't played it, but liked it.

However I have a niggling suspicion that, for the kind of games I like to play, it might overcompensate for a low magic world.

I'm one of those who can't stand the D&D overreliance on magic items. On first glance Iron Heroes scratches that itch. At the same time, I am a DM who enjoys a couple of magic items in a game (the kind of game where your 12th level character would have one major magic item and one or two minor ones). I also have no particularly objection to traditional spellcasters (as long as they're not magic item factories).

The problem with such a game is that it D&D characters would be underpowered in such a model. IH chracters would be overpowered. So my campaign model would still require some judicious house rulings in either case.

Does anyone share this issue?
100%

I'm waiting to see what Mastering IH has to say on the topic, but for now I plan on adding in "non bonus" magical items. The PC's of IH are expected to hold their own within the CR system (which, yes, I use in practice) without the benefit of magical pluses. They don't need a +1 longsword, and if I gave them one it would (1) be boring, and (2) throw off my CR calculations. What I do plan on providing is a sword that glows when orcs are near, or a rope whose knots either cannot be untied or simply come apart with a tug, as its named owner requires.

Of course, I don't plan on completely ripping off ol' JRR, but it's a good place to start. The items should be interesting, and have a history. They'll add to the thematic and historical deepness of the campaign, and provide the PC's with some small, interesting ability which they normally would not have access to. Most importantly, PC's will not be able to create magical items themselves. Magical Items can only be won, and they can be traced back to demons, dragons, Arch-Wizards from an earlier Age, or simply have a tale lost to history.

I don't expect to have any hard and fast rules (like one item per three character levels). The PCs will have items as the story requires.

On a different note, I don't have a problem with more powerful spellcasters either. Although its a project I haven't even started yet, I am going to take a long, hard look at the Mastery levels required to cause certain effects, and may be moving some around. I'm glad that Teleport is gone. It's not coming back. Neither are Craft Item feats. But perhaps it would be Ok to blast away a little more, or turn lead into gold at a lower level. We'll see how it goes.
 

ColonelHardisson said:
Why view it as a DM control issue? I've played characters in games that I'd consider low-powered - CoC, for example - and games that are high-powered - various iterations of friends' D&D campaigns - and there is definitely a distinction beyond DM/player conflict. My CoC characters felt relatively helpless; I knew they were much less capable than my D&D characters in almost any sense. I suppose one could talk about context, but that would still entail acknowledging that one game was more geared to a higher "power" level than another.

To be quite frank, I don't know which one of us isn't understanding what lies "beyond".

First, my motivation was to answer to this expression of "incredibly powerful" characters. Incredibly? Why "incredibly"?

Now, characters in themselves are not any less able than others of other games. Their theorical ability to affect the fictitious world is not so much defined by their abilities (among which the ones that are actively described in the rulebook form an infinitesimal fraction of the whole when compared to the ability to talk, to interact, to touch items, the near infinity of choices their fictitious alter-egos have) as they are by the opposition they face on average. CoC characters may feel helpless in front of Great Cthulhu. Doesn't mean they are inherently powerless (in fact, when you look closely at D&D, the actions of PCs are much more framed in a combat round than with the Basic RPS. In most cases, when talking about game design, the more abilities you describe in the rulebook, the more the players will feel empowered, but the more they will be framed in what they can do and cannot do. Example: how many of us where practicing stunts and maneuvers with Stormbringer way before the Iron Might? I did. But D&D with its combat system frames so much the action available to characters that suddenly it comes as a surprise that you could have stunts in a combat - and to be clear, I'm glad they are part of Iron Heroes!).

In practice, the opposition the PCs will face will be defined and designed by the DM. This is the DM who chooses to use this NPC or that creature to throw at the feet of their players. The DM (his choices, interpretations of rules, tastes, referee abilities etc) is the one in charge in practice. Not the rulebook. So whether the game itself is low powered or high powered is defined by the DMs choice.

To take an example, if I run a CoC game with people trapped in a haunted house facing cthonians awakening in the depths of the property, they will probably be helpless. However, if I run a game in which they find a key to the Dreamlands and have the opportunity to become kings of one of its forgotten kingdoms, chances are they won't feel as helpless. In both cases, we are talking about CoC games, but the Keeper chooses what to run and how.

Same thing in D&D. On one hand, have 10th level characters facing 6 orcs and indeed, as a DM you'll feel "hey, these characters are SO powerful!". On the other hand, make them face the dread and despair of the lair of two Ancient Wyrms and their spawns, and they will flee, discuss or die. The same way, you could say that the fact a D&D wizard can teleport and fly makes it more powerful than a Cthulhu PC. Well no. That all depends on circumstances and actually how these abilities are useful or not in any given situation. You can fly as much as you want in front of Great Cthulhu. You just become a mosquito instead of a bug.
 

Some nice ideas here. I'm just gearing up to planning a new homebrew for IH myself. I had thought that playing IH exclusively might preclude me from letting PCs get any magic items at all - but that might even mean not having a mcguffin in the plot (magic item everyone's after, for instance). Now Irda's comments and the ideas coming up in Mastering Iron Heroes might change all that - hopefully I can create a mcguffin or two that won't unbalance IH's gameplay if the PCs decide to keep one for a little while.

And I think that's the key here... not whether PCs are overpowered or underpowered. That's really a facet of the game up to the DM. The key is whether the PCs are balanced. I don't think a good DM would have any trouble balancing almost any party - even if that balancing happens because the DM disallows certain character ideas, magic items, etc. in their game. The only time I can conceive of an unbalanced IH game is if the DM doesn't pay attention to what has been layed out in the premise of the game in the first place i.e. no magic items that affect the combat ability of a character, unless (IMO) it's a mcguffin with a drawback that the PCs need to further the plot. I'll just have them turn it in at the end of the "quest."

If you're homebrewing and trying to combine IH and D&D classes (and magic items inherent in the PC progression), well.. I've got nothing for ya.

Good luck with that.
 
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Dr. Strangemonkey said:
The Player's Guide to the Middle Ages has phenomenal non-combat rules and I may even import them should I try to do a high combat/high intrigue game such as Game of Thrones. They would add a lot of breadth to IH's already phenomenal social rules.

Sorry to threadjack, but what is this Player's Guide to the Middle Ages that you speak of?
 


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