D&D is dying by the hour

[BryonD]

D&D has stubbed its toe.
Calling it "dying" is way way off.

 

[Henry]

I agree with Reynard on one thing: The initial announcement in August made a big "to do" about the four-pronged strategy of 4E: The Books, the Organized Play, the Community Networking, and the Online Tools. The Books are right on schedule, the Organized Play we really haven't heard much about (other than the DDXP so far), The Community Networking needs a STRONG overhaul (they do claim Gleemax is in Beta, though), and the Online Component sounds like it's pretty far off, with the biggest thing being shown is the avatar generator, and the Online Magazines still being free. I don't think they MEANT for the DDI or the other facets to be "gravy", but that's how it's turning out right now.

However, I don't think they're "killing D&D," as BryonD says, it's nowhere near that. If anything, as I've said, it's reminding me in some ways of even OLDER editions of D&D, in ways that 3E hasn't ever done; that's not killing it.

 

[mach1.9pants]

I agree, the lack of digital stuff isn't killing DnD, it is just not helping it grow more. I reckon the digital stuff could help increase the DnD community. But until it is released and fixed we won't see any results- good or bad.
As for the GSL that is going to damage 3rd parties a lot more than DnD. 3rd parties rely on DnD not the other way around. Once again it is holding back growth rather than killing what is there.
All told, the poor digital components and the ridiculous delay on the GSL might hit WotC's profit margins, but killing DnD- nope. Just look at the pre-order amounts for the 3 core gift wet on amazon for example.

 

[Terramotus]

I think fandoms on the Internet are, in general, whiny, demanding, unforgiving, and have unreasonable expectations as to the level of communication they should receive. And while daily communication may be appropriate for an MMO where the world and characters are held hostage for the monthly fee and are dependent on the company remaining viable, there needs to be no such expectation for a published game.

Wizards has done plenty. I know more about 4E than I did about 3E when it launched, and I wasn't particularly "lapsed" as a player then. I don't need to feel like I have a relationship with the designers via messageboards. I just need them to design a good game.

Do some companies maintain better online presences? Sure, especially software companies. But Wizards isn't a software company. Heck, they're a publishing company, the old-school method of content delivery, notorious for being luddites about new technology, owned by Hasbro, an old-school toy company.

And as was stated earlier thread, it's likely that the GSL is being held up by the suits and/or lawyers. When they hold things up, it's NEVER a good idea to make public statements about the matter.

 

[Starman]

I look at it like this. The people who buy into Pathfinder are probably customers who are very unlikely to buy into 4th edition anyway, and Wizards probably lost them as customers by annoucing 4th Edition in the first place. On top of that, the most vocal "I hate it" crowd from 4th edition are like people who show up in StarTrek or Battlestar Galactica forums and write posts about "I hate this episode, it sucked for all 18 of the times I watched it. They totally did it wrong". Beneath all that vitriol, they still watched the show, and they still talk about the show.

I think you're being somewhat unfair here. Are there going to be some people like this? No doubt. I think that more people, though, didn't have a problem with 4E in the abstract, but when details started emerging didn't like the direction it was going. There are some interesting aspects to it, and I will probably end up picking up the books. The purpose, though, will be to use those few elements I do like in my own games or for playing with groups that have switched. It won't be because I am excited about the new edition. I reserve final judgment for when the books are released, but overall that this point, I am not a big fan. I am very pleased to see Paizo moving forward with plans for 3.x and I hope other 3rd party publishers follow suit.

 

[BryonD]

I know more about 4E than I did about 3E when it launched

I must say that if this is true then you were not fully up to speed then.
I recall finally getting my hands on a PH and sitting there reading it and the only thing that I found disappointing was that I didn't feel like I had learned a single significant new thing.

 

[Felon]

Frankly, I don't care about whether D&D thrives or perishes at some broad macroscopic level. If it's thriving but it's evolved into something I don't want to use--which I'm afraid it is--then it's dead to me. The reverse is also true.

 

[Zil]

There are several factors that leads me to say this: First off a lot of the new stuff such as Gleemax and DnDInsider didn't really live up to my (and a lot of other peoples and publishers) expectations. Neither did the previews that people have gotten of the online-tools.

I have to say I'm really surprised with the sorry state of DDI and Gleemax. I was more than a bit skeptical about DDI when ti was first announced, but I never expected them to be in this dismal shape so close to the actual release of 4E. Gleemax is still as awful and ugly as ever and DDI is nothing I'd ever want to pay for. They should have been providing at least a few solid months of good quality to encourage people to "buy in" when they start charging for DDI. Instead, we get.. something very forgettable. I almost never check either on a regular basis anymore. Someone is really dropping the ball big time with this.

The next big failure in the launching of 4th edition was/is the annoucement of a GSL due to be out in november, which no publisher has yet seen. Not even a rules-preview for "close 3rd party publishers" as with 3rd edition.

Something again is wrong here as you say. How can they be so late on this item as well as DDI? What _is_ working right for them on these peripheral issues? It really feels like there is some kind of internal battle going within WoTC/hasbro - that or Hasbro legal is just giving this a low priority and is screwing up things inadvertently. It shouldn't take this long. And if this is normal, than WoTC had no business promising something by November and letting that deadline slip so much. The optics are so bad.

This led to the third big blow for Wizards: The Paizo annoucement of their own RPG / 3.5 compatible.

This was pretty inevitable after the screwup with the GSL/OGL. Paizo and other companies can't afford to sit around doing nothing waiting. Someone was going to do this.

Heck, if the GSL gets killed completely, then all the major third party publishers have a big decision to make as well: Continue working with 3.x, some new OGL based stuff, fold up shop, or go on to something completely different.

Now ususally when you up, or big things such as the 3rd party publisher not going 4th ed you need to do something. The LEAST Wizards could do is to communicate with the fans. Instead we get a deadly silence, making things even worse. No reassurances or any kind of comments on how 4th will be launched when no 3rd party publishers will be ready. Neither any comments on the GSL and what is happening.

It is surprising, yes, that no one is giving any substantive information to the third party publishers. It's not the way to engage in a partnership. Either someone is really dropping the ball again, or someone has decided they don't need the third party publishers.

By each hour that Wizards keeps silent, they frustrate and alienate possible 4th ed. players. Initially contact was good and Wiz-VIPs regularly showed up on various boards. Now we get nothing. While Paizo is actively communicates with their fans on a regular basis, Wizards is completely silent about major events that are of importance to the 4th edition. Who cares about crunch and fluff, when the game you love is heading for an unsecure future, and other parties (Paizo) picking up where Wizards left the fans hanging. We as gamers are not stupid - we are not only interested in getting the newest releases from Wizards, no questions asked. As "modern" consumers we want to know what is going on behind the curtain...

So what do you guys think? Is my analysis that Wizards is killing off D&D by not communicating at all correct?

Well, I don't think Wizards is intentionally trying to kill off D&D. We don't really know what they heck is going on over there. All we know for sure is that they are really dropping the ball on DDI/Gleemax and the GSL. 4E will still roll out on schedule with or without the GSL and third party support. It will roll out with or without a working DDI experience. Sure, there are some people are likely to give it a pass because of these problems. However, even more are likely to decide they just don't like where the game is going and decide to stay with Pathfinder or other 3.x/OGL derived games. But there will be enough rabid "gotta have the latest version of D&D" folks out there to make this a success on some level - at least in the short term.

I actually feel a bit bad for the 4E designers. Whether or not I personally like what I've been hearing about 4E (I've heard enough to be very worried), I think that they deserved a much more solid release and that the persons responsible for the GSL, the web components, and communication have done the development team, and D&D 4E in general, a great disservice.

 

[crow81]

D&D died for me at GenCon 2007. My first ever. I got back to back blows of the 4e announcement and the end of Living Greyhawk. In both cases I booed and in both case I was not the only one. Every game has a natural life cycle and for 3.5, it has not reached that point.

WotC published effectively 2 editions (3.0 & 3.5) in 8 years collecting core book revenues for both and now they want to put out another one with all the splat that goes with it. As others have said most gamers vote with their wallets and my money is now going to Paizo.

I hope I am not the minority but I expect that I may be I guess we will all find out by August

The fact that WotC are shooting themselves in the foot heck that is just icing on the cake

Dead overall maybe or maybe not but I know I am most likely skipping 4e altogether

 

[M.L. Martin]

I must say that if this is true then you were not fully up to speed then.
I recall finally getting my hands on a PH and sitting there reading it and the only thing that I found disappointing was that I didn't feel like I had learned a single significant new thing.

I had the same feeling--which is why I'm not terribly upset about the information flow for 4E. I think the 3E spoilers overdid it, and I don't mind seeing things rolled back a bit.