D&D is now in (exceedingly awesome) commercial form

Considering that Paizo Dungeon and Dragon were running about 50000 copies per month, combined, there had to be some tailing off somewhere along the lines. Now that number I know is true because it gets reported in the pages of the magazines every year.

You realize there's a 10 year gap between 1992 and Paizo publishing the magazines right?

This is the second time you've done this. First you tried to blame the Mentzer red box (which ceased publication in 1991) for the late-'90s decline of TSR. Now you're trying to pretend that a collapse you originally cited to 1982 is being supported by numbers you're pulling from 2002+ because there "had to be some tailing off somewhere along the lines".

Quickly skimming through the thread again, I can see no one claiming that D&D has never suffered a loss of players. So it seems like you're whacking away at a strawman there.

I'm also unclear on what your point is supposed to be at this point. You started out by arguing that the Mentzer red box was a failure because it failed to retain players, but you really don't seem to have explanation for how that's supposed to connect with supposed market drop-off a decade after the Mentzer red box was out of print.

AFAICT, from the limited information we have:

(1) D&D experienced explosive growth from roughly 1978-1983.

(2) The growth reached a plateau in 1982-1983, but was not followed by a dramatic collapse of the D&D market. In fact, the total size of the market seems to have been largely unchanged between 1983 and 1992.

(3) During the 1990s, the size of the D&D market declined. It's unclear how large this decline was.

(4) With the release of 3E, the size of the D&D market increased. It's unclear how large this increase was.

Couple of final notes:

The post-'83 plateauing of the market probably meant that fewer core rulebooks were being sold. If TSR was projecting (as so many young businesses do) that the explosive success of the past 3-4 years was going to continue, they likely were beginning to run into cash flow problems, which would match the reports of UA being rushed out the door. (But given the reputed success of the Mentzer Basic Set as the most successful rulebook of D&D ever published -- a claim which has few numbers attached to it, but has been supported directly or indirectly by a number of TSR and WotC employees -- sales can't have completely bottomed out, either, even taking the product's 8 year longevity into account.)

While I think the steady subscription rate of Dragon Magazine from '83 to '92 pretty much negates any claim that the D&D market collapsed during that time period, I don't think you can extend that logic to conclude that a collapse of Dragon's subscription numbers post-1992 necessarily indicate that the D&D market as a whole was collapsing.

First, during the '80s Dragon Magazine was the primary source of official source material for the game. As AD&D2 ramped up the supplement treadmill in the '90s, this ceased to be true. And it became even less true post-2000 with the D20 boom. Thus a major selling point of the magazine has become significantly diluted over the past 20 years.

Second, the effect of the internet on magazine subscriptions in general has been catastrophic. Trying to separate out the effect of D&D's market shrinking from the effect of the magazine market in general collapsing is going to be difficult or impossible.

Basically, in comparing subscription numbers in 1983 to subscription numbers in 1992 you're basically comparing apples-to-apples. In comparing subscription numbers in 1992 to 2002 or 2008, you're comparing apples-to-oranges.
 

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Ok...so..."commercial" at the beginning of this thread...love it? hate it?

Who cares at this point?

6,660 view (not kidding) and 220 replies...that latter several pages of which seem to have nothing to do with the origin of the thread.

So, can we, as a community...as a civilized group of mature persons...move on?

Just wondering...think it might be nice.
--SD
 

While I think the steady subscription rate of Dragon Magazine from '83 to '92 pretty much negates any claim that the D&D market collapsed during that time period, I don't think you can extend that logic to conclude that a collapse of Dragon's subscription numbers post-1992 necessarily indicate that the D&D market as a whole was collapsing.

To further complicate things, "circulation" and "subscriptions" are not the same thing. A magazine being circulated in 100 000 copies means that 100 000 (or so) copies are sent out to subscribers and shops. That's the "circulation" part of the whole thing. The ones sent to subscribers are prepaid, good stuff for a company. That's the "subscription" part of the whole thing.

The ones sent to shops are a gamble (more or less informed). The ones not sold are returned for pulping. And there are lots of magazines returned every month.

Without knowing how big the subscription part of the circulation number is, it is impossible to say anything about the number of subscribers. Basically, a circulation of 100 000 can mean 100 000 subscribers or 0 subscribers.

As always, print runs and circulation have a limited meaning. It's sell through and subscriptions that are the meat of the matter. And I think, although I might be wrong, that all the numbers for Dragon and Dungeon I have seen have been for "circulation" and not "subscriptions".

Sure, a large circulation often means a magazine has a large subscriber base, but this need not be a fact due to differing publishing models; wholly ad supported magazines might have a huge circulation but few subscribers, and a company can work towards a huge circulation to offset a dramatic loss of subscribers and hoping to pull people in again (not a very good long term strategy), to name just two different situations.

My guess is that the number of gamers declined during the late 80's, but that the industry continued to operate on the assumption/hope that it would be static or increasing, which in turn led to print runs that were too high, which took a toll on the companies, which in early to mid 90's caught up with them and brought many to their knees. I base this on how the companies I worked for during that time operated, but I have no clear numbers to back that up.

As I mentioned, in the late 80's and early 90's Sweden saw a dramatic drop off of RPG gamers, and from what I've read and observed, I believe that to be true for the rest of the world as well.

EDIT: so when a company enthusiastically cites "circulation", keep in mind that it is basically the same as citing e.g. downloads or print runs. A nice number to use in that company's marketing, no more, no less.

/M
 
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(Note: That page includes a letter from an anonymous WotC employee claiming TSR sold 1,000,000 Basic Sets in 1989. Erik Mona recently posted here on ENWorld to suggest that figure is hyper-inflated. Bearing that in mind, I'm ignoring all of the statistics from that letter.)
Ah good. I'd lost track of that thread but remember expressing my shock that the red box could be selling that kind of volume so late in its lifetime. Nice to be able to Tippex over that particular number in my mental lexicon.
 

WotC's survey does not define lapsed gamers as people who are no longer playing older products, but rather people who are not buying WotC products now.

This is not true. At least, it's not true of the data I worked with when I was the guy making the decisions. Given that the numbers currently bandied about are directionally similar to those I dealt with, I'd say it's not true now.

When I talked about "lapsed players," I was talking about people who didn't play at all. (Conversely, when I talked about "active players," that referred to people who did play, regardless of edition.)

(The truth is, if "active" meant "buying," the number of "players" would be way lower than it actually is. Even within the current edition, for every player who buys regularly there are several who don't. Look around your own gaming group; you'll probably see it there.)
 

To further complicate things, "circulation" and "subscriptions" are not the same thing. A magazine being circulated in 100 000 copies means that 100 000 (or so) copies are sent out to subscribers and shops. That's the "circulation" part of the whole thing. The ones sent to subscribers are prepaid, good stuff for a company. That's the "subscription" part of the whole thing.

If I'm not mistaken, those numbers should be available somewhere. IIRC, any periodical sent US second class mail was required once a year to publish the break-down of how many issues were being printed and where they were going to, how many to subscribers, how many to shops, how many were given away, etc. I can't find it on the Dragon Magazine CDs, though I don't know that I'm looking in the right places.
 

This is not true. At least, it's not true of the data I worked with when I was the guy making the decisions. Given that the numbers currently bandied about are directionally similar to those I dealt with, I'd say it's not true now.

When I talked about "lapsed players," I was talking about people who didn't play at all. (Conversely, when I talked about "active players," that referred to people who did play, regardless of edition.)

(The truth is, if "active" meant "buying," the number of "players" would be way lower than it actually is. Even within the current edition, for every player who buys regularly there are several who don't. Look around your own gaming group; you'll probably see it there.)

Charles,

Thanks for the info! An insider view is always useful when trying to parse information.

Out of curiosity, though, would I be considered a lapsed player under the data you worked with? I am working on/playtesting an SRD-based game (sort of a fusion between retro-clones and modern rulesets), but am not playing any official form of D&D.

What if I was playing WFRPG or Traveller?

Your answers will help me to make sense of the WotC data, and are appreciated!

RC
 

Out of curiosity, though, would I be considered a lapsed player under the data you worked with?

If you self-identify as a person who currently plays D&D, you'd show up as an active player. You may also have been asked which edition you play and how often you play and what other games you play (depending on the study and what we were trying to drill down to), but generally our top-line "X.X million people play D&D" numbers were based on the answer to that broadest question.
 


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