D&D General D&D isn't a simulation game, so what is???

[Thomas Shey]

He needed a magic system, one of his favorite books had one that would work great in a game. He took it.. Would he have done that if he hadn't read it? Or read it and hated it? Parsimony seems to be both.

But the point was, it wasn't particularly about its appropriateness for the setting, it was just about a mechanically workable option that provided some operational and tactical decision making. That's pretty much the definition of a gamist design decision.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I too am agnostic about three agendas. "Gamist" is poorly defined and likely IMO merges together multiple priorities.

Regarding your definition, contrast "ease" with "challenge", which is said to be a gamist priority. Until I see a robust definition for gamist anyone bucketing systems into it for me is on shaky ground.

Well, here we are then. While the two elements I mentioned can be in a bit of dynamic tension, they're still both clearly about the game functioning as a game to me, and don't have much of anything to do with ensuring proper the setting works properly, or making for a better dramatic process (unless you're position is that system transparency and speed is a priori a need in that, and that's one where I think someone pushing it is on shaky ground). I'm willing to accept arguments that there are other possible agendas but it seems like system flow and enjoyment are clearly in the same bucket to me; just because its one agenda doesn't mean it can't have multiple parts that are in conflict. After all, actual board games have that same conflict, and I don't think anyone would argue their primary functions aren't as games.

 

[niklinna]

Actually, almost every vehicle combat rules set I'm familiar with does consider fuel leaks as a possible result of attacks.

That's great to know, but doesn't change the point I was making.

 

[Cadence]

But the point was, it wasn't particularly about its appropriateness for the setting, it was just about a mechanically workable option that provided some operational and tactical decision making. That's pretty much the definition of a gamist design decision.

Presumably no one successfully picks inspiration for a game that can't be made mechanically workable, right?

Given he said Cugel was a major inspiration for the thief, and they lifted some spell names.directly from it (and others by effect), it feels like he liked the book a bit too.

 

[Hussar]

But even with a nearly empty tank, bullets don't create sparks like they do on TV. They just make a hole. The bullet will be hot, but not hot enough to ignite the fumes. I did a quick google search and found a Russian version of the test. On a side note a cigarette butt will also not ignite gasoline spilled on the ground and cars that are on fire almost never explode. Even if they do it's only a small explosion not a huge fireball.

TV and movies lie, man.

Heh, well, never minding the fact that gas tanks aren't made of metal, so, it's not like shooting them will ever cause sparks.

IIRC, most car fires are caused by electrical fires, I think.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Presumably no one successfully picks inspiration for a game that can't be made mechanically workable, right?

I genuinely have no idea what you are saying with this. Like I can tell you are asking this sarcastically, but I don't know what the serious point is supposed to be.

Given he said Cugel was a major inspiration for the thief, and they lifted some spell names.directly from it (and others by effect), it feels like he liked the book a bit too.

Not knowing what Cugel is, I cannot meaningfully respond.

 

[Oofta]

Oh, yeah, a regular bullet would be really unlikely to do it. The two times I saw it occur, both involved welding equipment.

And yeah, burning cars can burn awfully hot but an explosion is pretty unlikely.

Fuel + welder = bad. Guy I knew burned his snowmobile to a crisp almost along with my dad's shop.

 

[Cadence]

I genuinely have no idea what you are saying with this. Like I can tell you are asking this sarcastically, but I don't know what the serious point is supposed to be.


Not knowing what Cugel is, I cannot meaningfully respond.

The post I was quoting and replying to seemed to say that Vancian magic wasn't particularly chosen because it was appropriate to the setting, but only because it was mechanically workable option that made a good game (and was thus entirely a gamist choice).

I would argue that Gygax seemed to really like the Dying Earth books and find them inspirational to his splooshed together world (Cugel was the star of the second one and was cited by Gygax as a major influence of the Thief class, for example; in addition to lifting various spells; and the magic system) and that of course any magic system chosen to be in a game should be one that would work well in a game.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Presumably no one successfully picks inspiration for a game that can't be made mechanically workable, right?

"Successfully" is doing some heavy lifting in that sentence.

But the point is, that was the only apparent criterion. You notice he didn't say anything about "fitting the setting" or "working as intended in the world"; it was all about making the decision making process interesting.

Given he said Cugel was a major inspiration for the thief, and they lifted some spell names.directly from it (and others by effect), it feels like he liked the book a bit too.

I'm sure he did, but that doesn't say it had an overly strong influence on the setting (to the extent there was one) in any way. Poul Anderson had more than a big of influence too, between the law/chaos alignment conflict and the paladin.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Fuel + welder = bad. Guy I knew burned his snowmobile to a crisp almost along with my dad's shop.

Yup. And if you don't realize you're welding near a gas tank leaking fumes, well, lets say creative things can happen.