D&D General D&D, magic, and the mundane medieval

[GMforPowergamers]

The common/rare argument is a red herring. The rarer magic is, the more powerful those who can wield it become. One real spellcaster changes everything.

one of the fun things we did on tic tok earlier this year was a series of videos asking what 1 cantrip you would want in real life... and how GAME CHANGING and life changing that 1 minor thing can be (prestidigitation and druidcraft got a lot of love)

but it came out of "If in real life you could have 1 level of a class what class 1st level would you want" and that kept leading to Casters... and Wizard (even with no combat magic) was by an far a HUGE winner (but druid and bard both were up there).

magic changes the world...

 

[Cadence]

my guess (and I am no historian so this is pull out my backside numbers) between 25% and 50%.

I base this on pre computers people HAD to know math... every farmer every builder every smith uses math

Surely if we're counting folks able to do some arithmetic as mathematicians, then you know enough history for us to count you as a historian. Having successfully put thoughts onto (virtual) paper it feels like you should also be open to claiming credit as a writer. ;-)

 

[GMforPowergamers]

At work, we have a call center, and we tend to hire people to fill those positions 30+ people at a time and send them to training together.

oh... I thought we were not going into this... BUT I have 19 years of call center experience (that I am very glad not to be anymore though) and for some where between 1/3 and 1/2 that time I was incharage of training... and we did the same thing. Hire and assume day 2 of training 10% of the class isn't showing, and at day 4 for mock calls (especially if I was honest and the one doing the mock calls) we would loose more... training was 7 or 8 days (normal M-f 1 week then M and T or M-W) with the last 2 days being side by sides of real calls... the Monday it started and the Monday that we came back it would NOT be abnormal to be at half or less of the class. (I used to joke about it)
The first month saw huge drops too.

You know what I (almost) never found... a born customer service agent or a born salesman (we had both roles in the call center). What I found was 2 types of people stuck it out (and a few years before in retail I saw the same 2 groups) 1) kids that had no life or work experience, and 2) people desperate enough to hold there temper for low pay in high stress...

I can teach anyone to be a customer service agent (even today 6+ years out of call centers and into offices) you just need to WANT to. It is no harder then asking if they want fries with that or baby sitting. HOWEVER, the low pay bad hours and crappy conditions that MOST (not all) call centers have leads to people weighing WANTING to learn against "I can do X instead"

So there are a lot of reasons why someone might not be able to code, or learn how to cast spells, not because they're dumb but for other reasons.

and again, not wanting to push yourself to do something that doesn't come easy to you is perfectly understandable (especially when the question is why not get the same out of something I can do easier and or have more fun with).
This is not inborn nature.

very few people are born salesman... but anyone CAN be one if they have to be.
Very few people (if any) are born quantum scientist or brain surgeons... but if given the education and the will to try (even if it doesn't come easy) anyone could learn.

now what you find is there are low teir jobs that people should not have, they are not born ______s, and it shows as they are putting 5x the effort in as others and not being as good as those others... but being 'not great' is VERY different then "can't learn"

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Here's a scenario: a PC cleric grows to say, 3rd level, and the player decides that the PC is moved by the idea that their clerical powers could be used to help society as a whole rather than fight monsters. They decide to retire the PC to a community with the intention of using their abilities to help improve their quality of life, including training new acolytes as circumstances allow.

This could happen in any campaign, as it's a player decision. How would you, as the DM, extrapolate that retired PC's effects going forward?

oh I love this... we had an artificer and a bard (3e) do this in a campaign(7th level game), and they opened the "happy traveler inn" where anyone could come and be healed and anyone could bring things to be fixed... no cost. Then they took leadership (again this was 3e) and got cohorts, left them in charge, and went to open the 2nd 'happy traveler inn'. Once a few months past and both were going well (also with followers that were like 1st or 2nd level) the DM let them change the cohorts out to just 'friendly hireling NPCs' and take new cohorts... and we went to open the 3rd one.
So it took 5 or 6 years but every major town on the DMs map, and 7 planar locations had 'happy traveler inn"

They were an inn and tavern/restaurant but with free (always free to anyone) magical services... but when you were healed or your item mended or what ever you were told 1 thing "Remember this kindness, and maybe someday you will find that you can do one for others"

now 3e had leadership and crafting rules and down right broken mechanics... and we abused them to get the inn going, but we had a blast and made the world a much better place.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Surely if we're counting folks able to do some arithmetic as mathematicians, then you know enough history for us to count you as a historian. Having successfully put thoughts onto (virtual) paper it feels like you should also be open to claiming credit as a writer. ;-)

thank you

 

[MGibster]

very few people are born salesman... but anyone CAN be one if they have to be.
Very few people (if any) are born quantum scientist or brain surgeons... but if given the education and the will to try (even if it doesn't come easy) anyone could learn.

I don't feel as though you're addressing anything I wrote. I didn't say anything about inborn traits. If you can't train someone because they don't want to be trained, doesn't that just mean that not everyone can be trained?

 

[Oofta]

If I had said they could be easily met on the street, you’d have a point.

Meanwhile, I’ve “missed” nothing.

What you have missed is threefold:

1) You are counting professional mathematicians at universities as if they are the only mathematicians that lives in Europe in a given year, leaving out clergy and nobility.

2) The numbers, again, are not the point. Mathematics impacted Europe. There were enough people along the full spectrum from craft-folk who use basic maths to do their work, to the people progressing the field, that the world changed over generations because of them.

3) My point has always been, and remains, that the floor for learning to cast spells cannot rationally be the heights of professional advancement, but the practical usage of working people, even if only those at the higher end of the journeyman’s skill and knowledge. This is why “how many mathematicians in Europe” is not a question I see any value in the answer to. It doesn’t tell us anything we cannot glean from the effect of mathematics on crafts, architecture, economics, astronomy, chemistry, and whatever else, over many generations, because one needn’t be Newton to use mathematics or even to learn advanced mathematics like calculus and apply it to solutions to practical problems.

For #3, why not? Why can't becoming a wizard be incredibly difficult? People who want to be wizards don't have to be Einstein levels of intellect but most people would struggle to learn advanced mathematics. Yes, hard work and dedication matter so some people that don't have innate capacity could become wizards but there still has to be some innate talent. In addition, how many people are going to be at the extremes of dedication and have the opportunity?

Isn't all of this campaign world assumption based and therefore different from one campaign to another? Just stating that "it can't be" doesn't mean anything, it's all fiction so the fiction can change based on the vision of the DM and group.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

For #3, why not? Why can't becoming a wizard be incredibly difficult?

Where have I said it shouldn’t be?

Wizards are not the only spellcasters. Someone who has learned a few minor practical magics is not a wizard.

People who want to be wizards don't have to be Einstein levels of intellect but most people would struggle to learn advanced mathematics. Yes, hard work and dedication matter so some people that don't have innate capacity could become wizards but there still has to be some innate talent.

Right, so minor casters would be less rare than wizards.

In addition, how many people are going to be at the extremes of dedication and have the opportunity?

How many people became master sword smiths?

 

[Oofta]

Where have I said it shouldn’t be?

Wizards are not the only spellcasters. Someone who has learned a few minor practical magics is not a wizard.

Right, so minor casters would be less rare than wizards.

How many people became master sword smiths?

I was just responding to your assertions "My point has always been, and remains, that the floor for learning to cast spells cannot rationally be the heights of professional advancement, but the practical usage of working people, even if only those at the higher end of the journeyman’s skill and knowledge."

I disagree that it's "the higher end of the journeyman's skill and knowledge." There's no reason to believe that every person interested in becoming a wizard can do so. Same with any other caster class, some are born with innate abilities such as sorcerers, others are following a special path as chosen of their deity or dedication to a code for clerics/druids/paladins.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I was just responding to your assertions "My point has always been, and remains, that the floor for learning to cast spells cannot rationally be the heights of professional advancement, but the practical usage of working people, even if only those at the higher end of the journeyman’s skill and knowledge."

I disagree that it's "the higher end of the journeyman's skill and knowledge." There's no reason to believe that every person interested in becoming a wizard can do so. Same with any other caster class, some are born with innate abilities such as sorcerers, others are following a special path as chosen of their deity or dedication to a code for clerics/druids/paladins.

Of course, wizards don't actually follow any of the paths you described traditionally.