D&D 5E D&D Next Blog: Beyond Class & Race

[Argyle King]

Judging from what has happened in the past, the real beauty of feats is that they can be anything: adding a constant bonus, adding a new ability, changing or enhancing an existing ability, allowing you to exchange an existing ability for something else, etc.

Where they get ugly is when you have to choose between a bonus (which helps you stay relevant in combat at a given level) and something you think is cool/flavorful.

 

[pauljathome]

This just requires WotC designers to not design garbage default builds. They have this bad habit of suggesting poor options.

The problem is harder than that.

In fairness to WOTC, expecting 1/2 a dozen developers to come up with better builds than thousands of rabid optimizers is pretty unreasonable. Even if we assume that coming up with the best optimized build is their goal (it explicitly was an anti goal in some releases where they explicitly stated that they wanted to reward system mastery).

But lets assume for the moment that WOTC wants to create optimal builds and that they more or less manage it. Unfortunately, the build is all but guaranteed to become sub optimal once a splat book or two comes out or once some errata gets published.

 

[FireLance]

I was hoping that themes would be like 2e kits or Pathfinder character paths, which can provide some unique and interesting options as well as flavor, not just be a pre-chosen selection of regular feats that any character can get. That's a huge disappointment for me.

Interestingly enough, I have the opposite view. I like the idea of interesting (if not necessarily unique) options, and I believe that having to structure them as feats doesn't prevent anyone from creating them.

And in this way, if I want interesting option #1 from theme A and interesting option #2 from theme B, I'm not forced to choose between theme A or theme B. I can pick the more suitable theme and replace what I consider to be one of the less interesting options from that theme with the more interesting one from the other.

 

[Falling Icicle]

I suppose you could have kit/prestige class/path abilities become feats instead, and the theme would just give you those feats (i.e. an arcane archer would get the "imbue arrow", "seeker arrow", "phase arrow", etc. feats as part of this theme).

That would, of course, mean that anyone could take those feats, not just arcane archers, but I guess that's ok, after all, why couldn't someone have been trained by an arcane archer on the side and learned a couple of their tricks? You could also make access to some of these kind of "elite" feats more restrictive by giving them prerequisites not unlike a prestige class had, so that only those who would have qualified to be an arcane archer or whatever can qualify to learn those feats.

 

[MoonSong]

I suppose you could have kit/prestige class/path abilities become feats instead, and the theme would just give you those feats (i.e. an arcane archer would get the "imbue arrow", "seeker arrow", "phase arrow", etc. feats as part of this theme).

That would, of course, mean that anyone could take those feats, not just arcane archers, but I guess that's ok, after all, why couldn't someone have been trained by an arcane archer on the side and learned a couple of their tricks? You could also make access to some of these kind of "elite" feats more restrictive by giving them prerequisites not unlike a prestige class had, so that only those who would have qualified to be an arcane archer or whatever can qualify to learn those feats.

No, I don't think themes would work like that. Themes are meant to be a character creation choice, prestiges classes are character advancement ones instead, having themes has no impact on prestiges classes existing or not existing

 

[Ratskinner]

My initial impression was very positive.


Second thoughts: I do have one concern. If something akin to paragon paths/prestigue classes make their way into the game, I hope there aren't a plethora of them which can only be taken based on theme or background. Why? Because I don't want to see one theme or one background become the right answer for a good character. I don't want to return to Windrose Ports (I think that's the name of the 4E background which caused so many problems.)

I was thinking about this, too. What if (should your campaign/DM support this) we got rid of prestige classes, and instead had prestige themes. Mechanically, they wouldn't have to be any different than customizing your own themes during play (except for slapping a name on them.) Of course, sequential multiclassing and multitheming could make the class and theme lines at the top of the character sheet something of a mess.

 

[Falling Icicle]

No, I don't think themes would work like that. Themes are meant to be a character creation choice, prestiges classes are character advancement ones instead, having themes has no impact on prestiges classes existing or not existing

I was just speaking hypothetically, since I have no idea what they're going to do with "prestige classes", "paragon paths" or the like. They could just get rid of prestige classes/paragon paths altogether and have themes cover it, and that would work just fine.

I'm hoping that there won't be prestige classes/paragon paths at all in 5e. I always liked kits/archetypes better. They accomplish the same goals, but without the rigid requirements and the hassles of multiclassing. Plus, if I want to be an assassin, arcane archer, or whatever from level 1, why shouldn't I be able to do that? Killing prestige classes and making them themes would make me very happy.

 

[Ratskinner]

On first reading this seems really cool.

Scratching the surface, it seems a reintroduction of pregens.
Scratching further, the possible dilution of the class by removing skills and feats and funneling them into background and theme gives you a simple A,B,C and D for chargen but it still seems a little wonky to me. I would prefer background and theme to be all about additional features layered over the top rather than a re-organisation of what was once "class" features.

I think I really need to know what features are going to be in race and class to truly give a valid opinion on themes and backgrounds. It seems cool but I really want to see the big picture here.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

I'm okay with diluting the classes. I'm extra super okay with demoting (if that's the right word) some classes to themes. I recall a recent thread where someone was extolling the virtues of the assassin class: "a thief, but really really specialized in ways of killing someone" which had me thinking..."What is the fighter doing with that large axe, if not attempting to kill people?" I can easily see any of the big 4 classes working as an assassin, if the theme gives the access to it.

I agree with the "not enough info" sentiment.

 

[Ratskinner]

The only special thing is that they are killing 4E-style themes and replacing them with more reliance on feats, but skills and feats may not be as tied to class as they used to be.

Sorry, I'm perhaps not as familiar with 4e themes as I might be. What is it about 4e themes that you feel the article indicates they are killing?

 

[Minigiant]

I'm okay with diluting the classes. I'm extra super okay with demoting (if that's the right word) some classes to themes. I recall a recent thread where someone was extolling the virtues of the assassin class: "a thief, but really really specialized in ways of killing someone" which had me thinking..."What is the fighter doing with that large axe, if not attempting to kill people?" I can easily see any of the big 4 classes working as an assassin, if the theme gives the access to it.

I agree with the "not enough info" sentiment.

I am the opposite f this. I hope to not see the demotion of classes.

I am okay with aspects of a full class being given access as a theme. A Fighter could get a hidden strike with the lurker theme. The assassin class has the hidden strike by default and could be doubly killer by being an assassin(lurker).

As for pregens, I just hope the recommend background/theme choice are pretty good. That way people who that the default fighter(soldier)(slayer), rogue(thief)(lurker), cleric (priest)(???), and wizard(sage)(sharpshooter) don't feel unfocused.