D&D off-Ramps (from Rob Donaghue)

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Rob Donague (of Evil Hat) has been talking about "D&D Off-Ramps" recently. He comments on the maturation of of 3.x (and Pathfinder) rules system and names Numenera, 13th Age, and Dungeon World as the three main routes away from the D&D brand. It's an interesting article!

Today, following on from that, he talks further on why he selected the three games he did (13TH AGE, NUMENERA, DUNGEON WORLD) as the off-ramps.

What are your thoughts? Is he right?
 

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I agree with him that there are people looking for "D&D Off-Ramps." I believe there are players who stick with D&D simply because they aren't clear on what direction to go away from the game. They might have a sense that what they want is something different from what they've been playing, but are unsure about taking a particular exit because they aren't clear on what they might find there. In that sense, I do believe that something like 13th Age is attractive as an off-ramp because it looks similar enough to D&D to be inviting, but different enough to potentially promise something different.

That being said, I also believe there are plenty of "Off-Ramps" which are not those games. In my opinion, as a gamer, I'm living in a time when new games -and new games of what I feel are good quality- are more accessible than ever. I also believe there are some gamers who have played (and possibly even highly enjoyed) D&D, but are looking for an experience which is not D&D or in any way related to D&D; in contrast, there may even be gamers (and I fall into this category) who enjoy the fluff and story elements of D&D, but have come to really not care for the mechanics of the game. In both cases, there are many Off-Ramps. In the past year, I've tried Dragon Age* and Star Wars: Edge of The Empire; prior to that, I've become a huge fan of GURPS 4th Edition. I remember a time when I would have been hesitant to buy products for a different game -for a variety of reasons. I'm now at a point where it's more likely that I'll choose something else over a WoTC product.

I do believe he is right. I think there are people looking for off-ramps. I also believe the games he chose are comfortable choices for off-ramps because they are similar enough to not be a drastic departure from a group's norm. However, I also believe there are people who are like I was a few years ago; looking for something which is decidedly not D&D or D20. For those people, there are a lot of great games to choose from right now beyond the three mentioned in his article. There may even be some people who like the D&D stories, but not the D&D mechanics, and there are even some games which can provide that.




(On a side note, I don't believe his use of GURPS as one of his examples was necessarily accurate. I understand what he was trying to say with the example, but I do not believe the example was accurate in light of what he chose to use as part of the example. The idea that D&D 3rd is both more modular and has more consistent rules than GURPS is somewhat laughable, and I say this as someone who used to love 3rd.)

(*Fun game, but I did come to have some problems with it, so it didn't last as a regular game with the group. On the other hand, SWs has become one of the group's primary games.)
 


If anything it'll be 13th age.- That said I HATE the style it's written in

Numenera is too weird, from a guy who didn't back the kickstarter looking in it doesn't seem like it's enough to draw me away

Dungeon World, I think too many people would be like "dungeon who?"

I agree about the Pathfinder slowing down. I don't think there is any sort of slowing down numbers wise (sales)...but there is a feel for it
 
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"What are people going to start playing after the most popular systems" has always been an important question in RPGs. And, with 5th still being a ways out, it's probably more important now than ever. So he's certainly right on that.

Where he loses me is the gulf between "so close we'll just convert our ongoing campaign" and "different enough that it makes us want to try out something new." I think the game's he's described all fall into that gulf to one degree or another.

I'm not convinced "you can tell the same story with different rules" is a good pitch. That might catch some fans of retired editions who want support, but it's an even harder sell for players of a living game.

I think games like Numenera, or even totally unrelated stuff like Shadowrun and Fate, have a better chance because they're pitching it as something new. Numenera tries an interesting approach, just barely dabbling in D&D's pool, which I'm looking forward to seeing how it turns out.

Cheers!
Kinak
 

I guess I'm not looking for an off-ramp. I'm looking for an on-ramp.

I think Pathfinder is worse in all ways than 3.5. 13th Age seemed like some interesting ideas for a supplement, extrapolated out into an unnecessary new rules system. Numenera lost me when they chose to involve themselves in that Planescape: Torment con job, and Dungeon World is a great game, but one that doesn't really scratch that itch that D&D does. I want the kobolds to attack me because it seems like a good idea to the kobolds, not because I rolled insufficiently high on my action check.
 

Great posts, both of them. It'll be very interesting to see if a large enough body of players shift to these off-ramps, or to other potential off-ramps, in enough numbers to create serious shifts in the marketplace.

To paraphrase the old cliché Chinese curse -- "May you game in interesting times."

-rg
 

Is there evidence of people looking for off ramps? His thesis is that 3e /PF is old and people are going to look for something new...is this the case?
 

Thanks for the links!

I think they're well-thought out posts. And plausbile. I'm most of the way hrough my 13th Age PDF, and I can see how it fits this "off ramp" description. And on ENworld it's interesting to see how many people are enthused about "fail forward" and "one unique thing" - even though "fail forward" has been part of fantasy RPGing at least since Burning Wheel (close to 10 years now) and arguably is implicit in 4e, and "one unique thing" arguably goes back at least 20 years to Over the Edge.

I also enjoyed seeing the shoult-out for Rolemaster in the comments - it was my own off ramp from AD&D 20-something years ago.
 

even though "fail forward" has been part of fantasy RPGing at least since Burning Wheel (close to 10 years now) and arguably is implicit in 4e, and "one unique thing" arguably goes back at least 20 years to Over the Edge.

Never in human history has society valued the invention of something over the popularization of it. Why start now? :)
 

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