D&D off-Ramps (from Rob Donaghue)

[pemerton]

Never in human history has society valued the invention of something over the popularization of it. Why start now?

Exactly!

Reading the tone of 13th Age makes me cry for what 4e could have been, with better designer style (only Worlds & Monssters got close). And compared to BW or OtE, it fits the indie innovations into a broadly D&D framework. There are hints of the avant garde and outre flavour of OtE in various examples and side-remarks in 13th Age, but it doesn't foreground them in the way that OtE does. And BW is pretty baroque for the typical D&D player, I think.

But the real point is one of congratulations to Tweet and Heinsoo - they've put together an impressive package!

I also have some sympathy for the idea that Next may miss the wave.

 

[Kinak]

Is there evidence of people looking for off ramps? His thesis is that 3e /PF is old and people are going to look for something new...is this the case?

This is sort of a weak point. It's basically "3e/PF feels old to me" without any evidence to back it up.

Now, it doesn't feel old to me. In fact, our playgroup is more excited for Mythic Adventures and the Advanced Class Guide than any books in the rules line up to this point. So, our excitement is pointed up, despite being in it from the beginning. I understand I'm not representative in the slightest, but the anecdotes come out in the wash.

Regardless, though, there'll be plenty of people looking for new games. Some'll be coming from Pathfinder, some from 4e, some looking to fill time before 5 comes out, and others visitors from stranger shores. So, even if his predictions are flawed, it's still worth talking about what off-ramps people are taking.

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[Mark CMG]

I think Savage Worlds is more of an "Off Ramp" than what is likely to result from even the seemingly most popular of the three he mentions. Love Monte, but we saw a similar reaction to Arcana Unearthed and, though penned by Mike Mearls and Adam Windsor, but presented my Monte, Iron Heroes. But those, in retrospect were more like Rest Stops than Off Ramps. And, no, I don't think from what we've seen that Savage Worlds is more like a jump with no thread than the three he mentions all happen to be. Some are more mechanically similar in some ways and more different than D&D in others ways than Savage Worlds might seem to many. Of all the games I have seen folks tout over the last decade as the game that took them off the D&D highway, Savage Worlds has been the most mentioned and the most enduring in that time span. I think it is further notable when one considers that Savage Worlds and Arcana Unearthed both premiere in 2003 and Iron Heroes in 2005. It kinda feels like he started his argument with a conclusion and wound his way there, discounting some evidence that didn't fit where he intended to go, rather than beginning with a premise and seeing where it might lead.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Why isn't Pathfinder an off-ramp from the D&D brand?

Yeah, it's basically 3.75 rules-wise, and plays just like D&D, but it is a different brand.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Hopefully he's right. We've come along way from the golden age of 3e, that much is certain. Some more real viable choices would be game-changers for us the players, and perhaps competition would change D&D for the better.

 

[MerricB]

Why isn't Pathfinder an off-ramp from the D&D brand?

Because he isn't talking about the D&D brand. He's talking about the D&D experience, and Pathfinder is just 3.75 - if you started in 2000, you've been basically playing the same game for 13 years now.

 

[Morrus]

Because he isn't talking about the D&D brand. He's talking about the D&D experience, and Pathfinder is just 3.75 - if you started in 2000, you've been basically playing the same game for 13 years now.

Yup, exactly. He's not talking about brands. He's talking about systems. In that model, Pathfinder is 3.x D&D; he's talking about an off-ramp off Pathfinder, too. That said, I'd argue that 13th Age is "D&D", too. It's no further from 3.x than 4E is.

3.x (or "the d20 system") is old now, as suppoed games go. It doesn't feel like it, but as it say t's been actively supported and published for 13 years now. That's a long time in the game industry! Probably longer than some of its player base has been alive - it's been there all their life.

Oh god. Now I've made myself feel old...

 

[Dwimmerlied]

Is there evidence of people looking for off ramps? His thesis is that 3e /PF is old and people are going to look for something new...is this the case?

Yeah that's what I was interested in too. Or further, why off-ramps are necessarily a good thing. I either didn't see it qualified, didn't understand it or wasn't convinced

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

While there are always some, I don't think there is a big desire for an off-ramp from D&D. Either people want D&D (or a modification of it), or they want something new. They aren't looking for something directly descended from D&D.

The author is right to group Pathfinder as a version of D&D, and 13th age and Numenera as not. The latter two appeal to RPG industry enthusiasts. Most players may never hear of them.

 

[Morrus]

The author is right to group Pathfinder as a version of D&D, and 13th age and Numenera as not. The latter two appeal to RPG industry enthusiasts. Most players may never hear of them.

That's an odd approach. Whether or not something is a version of D&D is based on whether people have heard of it?

13th Age, to me, is very clearly D&D. Numenera, from what I've heard of it, is very much not.