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I'm thinking of the 2e Skald, which was like a Bard without spellcasting but better combat ability and a war chant that allowed them to sing and attack at the same time. The war chant had different possible effects for the the Skald player to choose, like temp HP, bonus to attack, bonus to AC, etc.
OK, I don't know the 2nd ed bard variants very well.

What you describe sounds also a lot like a 3E Marshall, at least as I understand that character by reputation - with chants as auras. And could easily be an inspirational warlord - although I wouldn't like the chanting to be mandatory.
 

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If you want, for example, Aragorn to be described on the character sheet in a way that makes him recognizable to a LotR fan, you'll simulate him via the system one way. OTOH, if you are more interested in having a character act in a way that makes him recognizable to a LotR fan, you'll emulate him via the system in a different way. There will be considerable overlap, of course, though much of this will be color, not mechanics.

People really far along the curve seeking immersion won't see this, I think, because for them color and description is what they hang their hat on. If you want to play someone like Aragorn, describe him appropriately and then read LotR for insights. Whereas the emulation crowd is after a different effect: we give the character to someone who has no clue about LotR, but still get play somewhat as expected.
Nice analysis. In your terminology, I'm in the "emulation" crowd.
 

There are a good points made on both sides. As for me, I'm a 4e person in that I grew very tired of the more extreme process-sim road that 3E was on; I don't mind and appreciate the more abstract and 'disassociated' mechanics of 4e for the most part and I generally scoff at the 'hit-points-as-meat' crowd. Yet even I have trouble with 'tactical' part of Warlord sometimes. This is something for a commander of armies, or at least military units of a size a bit greater than the 4-5 or so characters in the usual adventuring party.

Take a look at the military group called the Fireteam the us army fire-team was said to inspire Arnesons ideas about the original D&D party.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fireteam

Tactics and emphasizing perception and roles and leading doesnt suddenly enter the picture for large groups. Any more than a second leutenent necessarily has more experience than his team.
 

Take a look at the military group called the Fireteam the us army fire-team was said to inspire Arnesons ideas about the original D&D party.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fireteam

Tactics and emphasizing perception and roles and leading doesnt suddenly enter the picture for large groups. Any more than a second leutenent necessarily has more experience than his team.


A second lieutenant usually command 2-3 squads each consist of 2-4 fireteams.

Warder
 

10 levels of a quick and dirty made up Warlord on a funky Cleric/Rogue hybrid chassis. That's pretty "Warlord-ey". Certainly not "Fighter-ey". I know you certainly aren't getting the below with the Fighter, some maneuvers and a Background/Specialty. How invasive this is to people's "immersion/believability threshold"...I'll allow them to be the judge of that.

Warlord (Field Marshal)

Ability Adjustment: +1 to your Strength, Intelligence, or Charisma score.
Starting Hit Points: 8 + Constitution modifier
Armor and Weapon Proficiencies: Light armor, medium armor, and shields
Weapon Proficiencies: All simple and martial weapons
Hit Dice: 1d8 per warlord level
Hit Points: 1d8 (or 5) + your Constitution modifier per warlord level gained

[TABLE="width: 500"] [TR] [TD]Level[/TD] [TD]Weapon Attack[/TD] [TD]That's an Order[/TD] [TD]MDDice[/TD] [TD]MDB[/TD] [TD]Class Features (* See below*)[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]1[/TD] [TD]+1[/TD] [TD]1/day[/TD] [TD]NA[/TD] [TD]NA[/TD] [TD]BCT, TaO, VoaTT[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]2[/TD] [TD]+1[/TD] [TD]2/day[/TD] [TD]NA[/TD] [TD]NA[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]3[/TD] [TD]+1[/TD] [TD]2/day[/TD] [TD]NA[/TD] [TD]NA[/TD] [TD]SS[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]4[/TD] [TD]+2[/TD] [TD]2/day[/TD] [TD]NA[/TD] [TD]NA[/TD] [TD]KTE[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]5[/TD] [TD]+2[/TD] [TD]3/day[/TD] [TD]NA[/TD] [TD]NA[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]6[/TD] [TD]+2[/TD] [TD]3/day[/TD] [TD]1d6[/TD] [TD]NA[/TD] [TD]Combat Expertise[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]7[/TD] [TD]+2[/TD] [TD]3/day[/TD] [TD]1d6[/TD] [TD]NA[/TD] [TD]AAO[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]8[/TD] [TD]+2[/TD] [TD]4/day[/TD] [TD]1d6[/TD] [TD]NA[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]9[/TD] [TD]+3[/TD] [TD]4/day[/TD] [TD]1d6[/TD] [TD]NA[/TD] [TD]DDoM[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]10[/TD] [TD]+3[/TD] [TD]4/day[/TD] [TD]2d6[/TD] [TD]NA[/TD] [TD]MoI[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE]

1 - (BCT) Battle Captain's Tactics - As an action, you can use any of the below 3 Tactics:

Better Part of Valor - As an action, you can make a melee or ranged attack. One ally can then use their reaction to move up to 10 feet. This movement does not provoke opportunity attacks.

Direct the Strike - As an action, one ally attacks or casts an at-will spell with advantage against an enemy of your (their) choice. Your Martial Damage Dice, if any, is added to their damage.

Phalanx Formation - As an action, you make an attack. On its next turn, if the enemy attacks an ally while you are adjacent to it, your ally can use a reaction to impose disadvantage on the attack roll.

1 - (TaO) That's an Order - A number of times per day, you can issue one of the below Orders:

Fortune Favors the Bold - As an action, you can expend a use of your TaO to give a number of allies equal to your Intelligence modifier an action that they must use immediately. If you are at least 11th level, the number of allies improves to your Intelligence modifier + 1.

Shake It Off - When an ally takes damage, you can expend a use of your TaO as a reaction. When you do so, reduce the damage the ally takes by 10. If you are at least 11th level, reduce the damage by 20 instead.

1 - (VoaTT) Veteran of a Thousand Treaties - You are trained in Knowledge Warfare and Persuade.

3 - (SS) Stirring Speech - Once per day, when your allies spend a Hit Die during a short rest, you can give them a bonus to their Hit Points gained equal to your Charisma modifier.

4 - (KTE) Know Thy Enemy - You and your allies have advantage on Sense Motive and Initative checks.

7 - (AAO) Against All Odds - You are immune to fear effects. As a reaction, when an ally makes a saving throw against a fear effect, you can provide that ally advantage on their saving throw.

9 - (DDoM) Don't Die on Me - If an attack or other effect drops an ally to 0 hit points or fewer and it fails to kill them outright, you can spend a reaction to allow them a DC 10 Constitution saving throw to drop to 1 hit point instead. Each time they succeed on this saving throw before taking a short rest, the DC increases by 5.

10 - (MoI) Master of Intel - You have advantage on any Intelligence of Charisma check used to gather information on an enemy's infrastructure, position, and means.
 
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2nd ed bard variants

The 2E Complete Bard's Handbook is a perfect example of what I'm looking for. This book identified the key elements that made up the Bard class. Then each variant, like the Skald, kept or replaced each element. You had one class that covered 17 new concepts. These weren't just kits like the other 2E Complete books, these were variant classes. This type of approach, coupled with fewer classes overall, would make for a tighter game IMO. Everyone claiming that the Fighter *can't* be the Warlord are limited their view to what the Fighter provides now, not what he could be.
 

Your question was, Are there literary/fantasy figures who are warlords? I answered.

It wasn't, actually.

I was just trying to point out that those literary/fantasy figures are in fact not warlords, because they are not D&D characters. Folks may wish to interpret them as warlords, but that is subject to a lot of bias in the interpretation. (Obviously, given how many ways Aragorn, Gandalf, etc. have been presented on various blogs and articles over the years.)

The same is true for doing LotR and seeing "inspirational healing" in it. You wouldn't be, except 4e does it that way. The same effect which you see as inspirational healing might be a morale check, charisma check, bardic magic, or heaven knows what else given the breadth of 3pp nowadays.

I don't want to go through the rest of what you said point by point, other than to say...I actually agree with most of the points...its the implications or conclusions that people are getting hung up on. :)

Repeatedly people are saying "You can do the same with Paladin, Ranger, and Barbarian!" as if that somehow ends the discussion....Well, I think you could do the same with them, and I'd be fine with it. (I tend to agree that monk works better as a rogue variant, and assassin certainly is.)

Taking a step out/back, I think this may be a bigger confusion/imprecision with class design. A problem that earlier editions had, 4e sorta got away from, and 5e appears to be resurrecting. Basically, classes aren't being designed or thought of with the same "width" or "breadth" of concept under them. So, "Fighter" is very broad compared to say "Monk". (Not as true in 4e, IMO.) Since fighter is so broad, there is a lot of internal customization offered in the maneuver choices. Monk, only has a few options from his Ki ability and tradition.

You could go the opposite way, as well. (Some of the indie games have done this.) Fighter could be blown up into several classes (A sword+board guy, a big weapon guy, a dual-wielder, an archer, etc.) Each with very specific abilties and maneuvers. I wouldn't be the biggest fan of this system (with its zillion classes), and you'd need some pretty good multiclassing rules ('cause someone will always be looking for that zillion-first character), but it would work. Wizards could be deconstructed into any number of <X>-mancers.

Of course, which end of this spectrum works best can depend on other things about your mechanics as well. If your fiddly bits are individually pretty broad, you're probably better off going with the broader classes. In the extreme, that leads to classes games, where the fiddly bits do all the lifting. At the other end, you have fiddly bits that are very specific (at least in comparison) much more script-like and classes that are as well. If the rest of your system is in the middle, then your classes will come probably come down that way as well.

(to bring it back around)
I think some of what Mearls' has been saying these last few articles is that:
a) they are (most)comfortable with the level of abstraction that maneuvers seem to carry.
b) they'd like to get spells working more like that.
c) at that level of abstraction, Warlord is probably a fighter with maneuvers.
 

The 2E Complete Bard's Handbook is a perfect example of what I'm looking for. This book identified the key elements that made up the Bard class. Then each variant, like the Skald, kept or replaced each element. You had one class that covered 17 new concepts. These weren't just kits like the other 2E Complete books, these were variant classes. This type of approach, coupled with fewer classes overall, would make for a tighter game IMO. Everyone claiming that the Fighter *can't* be the Warlord are limited their view to what the Fighter provides now, not what he could be.

The best book ever written... the book that earned me my reputation as a bard only player...

it´s not that i really liked to play the ministrel... i actually liked the possibilities each of those alternate class variants offered... usually not a lot to do with the classic bard...
 


The same is true for doing LotR and seeing "inspirational healing" in it. You wouldn't be, except 4e does it that way. The same effect which you see as inspirational healing might be a morale check, charisma check, bardic magic, or heaven knows what else given the breadth of 3pp nowadays.
Confining ourselves to D&D-ism, I wouldn't see it as bardic magic - because not magic, in D&D terms - and nor as a morale check, because PCs don't suffer morale penalties.

Some form of CHA check would make sense, and in the past [MENTION=386]LostSoul[/MENTION] and I have discussed how, in 4e, you should adjudicate Diplomacy used to heal.

Repeatedly people are saying "You can do the same with Paladin, Ranger, and Barbarian!" as if that somehow ends the discussion....Well, I think you could do the same with them, and I'd be fine with it.
But we know that won't happen. Which then has implications for the standing of a (former) class where that is done.

It's a bit like the subsumption of acroatic abilities into NWP in 2nd ed - that kills off the Thief Acrobat as a mechaically full-fledged class, all the abilities becoming weaker or less reliable because mediated via the generic NWP mechanics.

I think this will be doubly so for the warlord because the fighter won't be allowed to have much in the way of metagame mechanics.

In other words, people who are saying that the warlord will be killed of aren't fetishising class identity for its own sake - they're drawing inferences based on the traditional meaning of class in D&D, plus an impression of the design limitations that are going to constrain fighters.
 

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