D&D SHOULD NOT have a defined atmosphere/style *Semi Rant*

[Akrasia]

I highly agree. It is expected, and even balanced, so that characters have to become walking Christmas trees in order to survive. The sheer amount of magic is frightening. Magical abilities have become a short-cut to bypass storytelling. Magical teleports and scrying reveal elements of the story that should remain hidden and the likes. In short, in my eyes D&D has killed magic: the super scope, the commonality, the power, the safeness of use, and magic items. Has magic ceased to be magical now? Are peasants amazed to see a low-level spell cast, or do they expect it as ordinary? This was probably my greatest disappointment when I was first introduced to D&D, the blandness of magic.
....

Of course bands of PCs laden with magical loot have been a problem in every version of D&D/AD&D. I remember complaints about 'Monty Haul' campaigns back in the day. I guess the difference is that 3e somehow integrated a standard (and rather high) level of magic items into the game itself.

I don't like it, but I think it can be easily fixed.

 

[Arnwyn]

Did I fall back into 2001?

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Funny, I remember 1e and 2e as a helter-skelter random collection of 'rules' that were altered or ignored in most of the published work. You could hack and slice house rules... I mean you *needed to*.. because nothing was set opposing another mechanic. Most of the rules you either looked up in the book or pulled an off-the-cuff answer as it was too hard to memorize them all.

3e gives a style free collection of rules that work intrinsically with each other. A nudge here makes a ripple there. Most of the rules are simple mechancis of roll vs a DC.

Campaign setting have the style, such as GH, FR, or Ebberon.. not the core rules.

If your game is resembling MMORGS and magic is not macigal.. are you going to blame it on the fast leveling and magic arms race that you are not *forced* to use?
Slow up the progression, limit magic, limit the creatures that force higher magic..
Make Magic new and interesting. Use supplements like the Elements of Magic to create entire new variations of spells and abilties.
Be mean and use EOM for the NPC's and never tell your players.. so when they encounter a mage who tosses off "Hartor's Binding Shadows" {a spell that creates solid bands of shadow substance, contricting and blinding the targets} they get amazed.

Most important.. control what sources your players can use. There are lots of the type of prestige classes and other junk out there. Easy for stuff to get published online..even in forums like this. Just becuase you got it on the Net doesn't mean its good.

Anyway.. them's my thoughts.. just remember you asked for em

==
Currently running a 3rd level Ebberon game, the group has a total of 4 permanent magic items amongst the 8 of them...and just earned 100 gp each in the last adventure.
==

 

[Akrasia]

...
Earlier editions were just as filled with magical goodies and power-ups as the current edition.

Some were, some weren't. However, there was no built-in assumption about the number of magic items per level in earlier editions.

 

[molonel]

D&D 3.X is a good game in my opinion but does anyone else sense a the creeping influence of a pervasive style...a kind of power up, magic toy, EXTREME/KEWL/IN YOUR FACE/RADICAL fantasy that is what D&D is now supposed to be? Look at the art, the style of dress, the poses of characters and monsters who seem more about how "kick ass" they are with their cool feat trees, dragonblooded/fiend/god touched/knight/monk multiclasses, and a general idea that combat effectiveness and kewl/extreme powers is the defining quality of value in the context of a role playing game. God, and look at level advancement.....one year, if played as expected, to reach 20th level. Gimme a break. A character of that level in D&D 1e or 2e could regale listeners for hours and hours, probably days, about the adventures they've had. Compared to those characters, modern PCs haven't done squat to get where they are. Now I am not denigrating combat effectiveness or maximizing a character, I am instead talking about the style, presentation and feel of the core books and the supposition that D&D is supposed to be this or that.

Since you admitted that you were ranting, allow me to post a counter-rant:

I really, REALLY get tired of 1e/2e nostalgia. I played 1st Edition. I loved it. I still have my books. It was where I cut my teeth in gaming.

And we powergamed all the freaking live-long day. The first Unearthed Arcana was filled with so much munchiny goodness that it dripped with sweetness for our itchy dice-rolling fingers. 2nd Edition? Supplement after supplement after blessed supplement that we thumbed through eagerly searching for kits, items, combos, whatever. Magic toys? I had friends who used the old Deities and Demigods book as a SHOPPING LIST. Elric's Stormbringer, the Ring of Kings, Thor's Hammer, that little triangular stone around that big multiarmed creature in one of the Asian pantheons that turned into any weapon you wanted.

If someone wants to play 1st Edition or 2nd Edition, hey, more power to you. It's your time, and your game. Go to it.

But don't try and sell me on some misplaced nostalgia for things past. All of the best 3rd Edition powergamers I know, every single one of them, cut their teeth on powergaming in 2nd Edition AD&D.

And yes, the rules are now DESIGNED to allow a character to reach 20th level someday. Fancy that. So the rules actually allow that you will someday reach levels documented in the books themselves.

Unthinkable!

There are alternate rules for advancing more slowly in the DMG. 2nd Edition folks should have a pretty good handle on - ya know? - tinkering with the rules to tweak them to their own satisfaction. I use a faster advancement table, actually, since my group only meets once or twice a month, and I like to reward them with forward motion in both story AND mechanics.

I love the variety of rules sets in d20/3rd Edition D&D. I've thumbed through Grim and Gritty, Mongoose's Conan rules, and every low magic book I can put my hands on. Even in 2nd Edition, I was never presented with so many coherent options.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I remember that in the days of 1e and then 2e D&D didn't really have a FEEL.

I categorically disagree about 1E. There were massive default assumptions. Heck, when it was Gary Gygax writing the AD&D books, the assumption was that you were playing in the World of Greyhawk, or something close enough that made no difference. There was nothing toolkit about it -- spells had the names of key Greyhawk characters, the races available were the races that existed on Oerth and this just became more true with Unearthed Arcana.

AD&D -- and he was quite clear in Dragon columns that you were GOING to play it HIS way or be playing something else -- had a cosmopolitan mix of races, a very faux European feel, wacky alien technology around the fringes, and overwhelmingly powerful magic-users pursuing their own agendas.

You could hack apart the rules as you wished without causing some precious yet nebulous "game balance" to collapse all around you.

Gygax specifically told players NOT to do this.

Now, there was a brief window of 1E where Gygax wasn't involved, but the bulk of 1E materials, in terms of sales, were written by him or under his direction.

What you're fondly flashing back to are the 2E days, or what I like to think of as the dark ages.

D&D 3.X is a good game in my opinion but does anyone else sense a the creeping influence of a pervasive style...a kind of power up, magic toy, EXTREME/KEWL/IN YOUR FACE/RADICAL fantasy that is what D&D is now supposed to be?

That's a return to its roots. One of the earliest Gygaxian campaign entries in either The Dragon (back when it was The) or The Strategic Review discussed the characters fighting German World War II era soldiers (and winning), while another contributor talked about a character learning Wall language to interrogate dungeons as to their contents.

Power gaming has been with D&D from the very beginning.

 

[Akrasia]

... I really, REALLY get tired of 1e/2e nostalgia....

I don't understand why people post in threads that are on topics of which they are tired. Why not just ignore those threads? That's what I do.

 

[molonel]

I don't understand why people post in threads that are on topics of which they are tired. Why not just ignore those threads? That's what I do.

Because it's Monday?

 

[Akrasia]

... AD&D -- and he was quite clear in Dragon columns that you were GOING to play it HIS way or be playing something else ...

Well, to be fair, those columns were written in response to a problem that he perceived at the time -- namely, people either running 'Monty Haul' style campaigns, or games that drew upon lots of non-TSR material (which he thought was poorly designed -- whether he was right about that, I don't know).

In contrast, when EGG wrote the original 1e PHB and DMG, he was quite explicit in stating that he was giving people guidelines that they could change. Read the afterword in the DMG -- Gygax tells DMs to alter the rules if necessary for their campaigns. (Unfortunately, I don't have my copy with me right now, so I can't quote it.)

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

In contrast, when EGG wrote the original 1e PHB and DMG, he was quite explicit in stating that he was giving people guidelines that they could change. Read the afterword in the DMG -- Gygax tells DMs to alter the rules if necessary for their campaigns. (Unfortunately, I don't have my copy with me right now, so I can't quote it.)

And then he took it back.

Whatever his motives in telling the faithful not to stray into heresy, he did it. Whether he was right or wrong to do so, he did it.