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D&D vs WHFRP

When I was in Nottingham last year, I had the privelege of getting an explanation of Warhammer's often nebulous nature from a fabulous guy named Paul (who's the GW liason at Mythic). He has several different explanations for ways to think about Warhammer, but the best in my estimation is to regard it as "the thing in the shed." Only a handful of people have the keys. They get the big picture. The rest of us never get a look at the whole thing, the big, ugly abomination that is the Warhammer idea. Instead, if we're lucky, we get a peek, a glimpse of the thing through a knot hole in the side of the building. This is never a full view, just one look from one very narrow perspective. Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay is one, Mordheim is another, Warhammer Quest is yet another still, just as Warhammer Fantasy Battles (in all of its incarnations) are more views. The novels and short stories and video games and CCGS and all the other forms Warhammer takes are all but flashes, brief exposures to the thing that is Warhammer.

The point of this anecdote is that debate about a general acceptance of Wizards (Magisters) versus widespread fear and suspicion is meaningless, because both are right. Yes. The common man craps his britches when the Magisters stroll by. And it's also true that when some twit lobs a fireball in the middle of a village you can bet on Sigmar's Sizzling Sausage his fate is to be beaten, tortured, and then burned at the stake by Sigmar-fearing peasants who dread the coming of the Witch Hunters.

And yet, it's also true that the Magisters learned their trade and craft from the great high mage Teclis who founded the Orders of Magic in the Empire in the wake of the Great War against Chaos. Many Magisters have places within the courts of nobles, are involved--to some extent--in the politics of the lands and command great respect and influence in the Empire. Battle wizards (and no, we're not talking about 1e characters of the same name) are a breed of spellcasters whose capacity for violence must be checked by the orders lest they lose control and devestate chunks of the Empire in a fit of passion. Wizards can destroy swathes of mortals at a time and through their foibles, they can tear the guts out of reality and find themselves drawn bodily into the Realm of Chaos where they will be tortured by gibbering daemons for eternity.

All of this is true. But it's also a matter of scope. You won't see careers for King/Emperor/Grand Theogonist/et al in WFRP because its perspective is centers on common people put in uncommon situations. It is a nasty game where life is cheap and the fate of "heroes" is to wind up drowning in a puddle of mud, with your shorts full of crap, a wriggling tentacle working its way out your back, and a tear in your intestines that will kill you in about 3 days. As an adventurer, you're going to die a messy, and probably darkly funny, death. You might sprout a nest of tentacles topped with blinking eyeballs after taking a bullet from a warplock jezzail, crap yourself comatose after a swig of tainted water, have to have a surgeon cut into your skull to extract a cavity worm that feasts on your exhales, or be served well-done to a ravenous orc on a bed of your own guts.

As grim and perilous as WFRP is, what makes this game buckets of fun in my opinion is that you go in knowing your fate, knowing you are doomed. It's the rich setting, the environment, and the thrilling adventure that keeps you coming back to the table. And if you manage to live through being a peasant, if you somehow step from holding a bucket of your lord's leavings, you get to enjoy the heady sense of accomplishment after being drafted by the Army of Nuln to fight a doomed battle holding a pass against a horde of frothing Kurgan and twisted mutants shrieking and twittering in the night, calling for the blessings of their foul and hideous gods as they drag screaming soldiers to their dooms.

So when you hear someone claim to have the definitive story about Warhammer, be suspicious. Warhammer can be many things, but what sets it apart is not exhaustive minutia about how many crops are grown in an acre field or how many many pounds of excrement flow through the sewers of Altdorf each day or a definitive story about what Karl Franz ate or the color of his griffon's eyes, but rather Warhammer is a mood and an atmosphere.

Hope this helps.
 

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mhensley said:
In the six or so games that I've run, none of the players ever remembered to spend a fortune point on anything. I suppose that they were so set in their D&D ways that such a concept was too foreign to them.

You're not killing them hard enough.
 


Rel said:
You're not killing them hard enough.

The encounter with the eight beastmen in the last session solved that. Everybody lost fate points in that one. :cool:

Which brings up a question I've been meaning to ask. When a character burns a fate point to avoid death in a combat, should it save the entire group or just him? Also, should it take him out of combat entirely (unconscious, fell down a hole, saved by giant eagles, whatever) or should it just negate the one killing crit?

The problems I had in the above combat was that in the very first round, 2 of the 8 pc's were hit with nasty crits. They used their fate points to negate the crits and I ruled that they were knocked unconscious and out of the fight. The problem with this was now the remaining pc's were badly outnumbered and slowly got beat down. The only way out of this downward spiral was to start allowing the use of fate points to negate death but allow them to stay in the fight. Eventually, the lone remaining pc, a dwarf marine, killed the last of the beastmen after using up all of his fate points and getting his ribs broken.

If a fate point is used just to negate one crit without taking the pc out of the fight, it's very likely to cause them to lose more fate points due to them being at 0 wounds. And if you take them out the fight with the fate point, the rest of the group may suffer. What's the answer?
 

*Reads RJS' fantastic post*

Yep, never going to be able to get my players into it. :D

I'll try, by God, sometime early next year, though.
 

mhensley said:
If a fate point is used just to negate one crit without taking the pc out of the fight, it's very likely to cause them to lose more fate points due to them being at 0 wounds. And if you take them out the fight with the fate point, the rest of the group may suffer. What's the answer?

I would suggest you look at the effect of the crit they are negating. If the crit would take them out of the fight (by killing or incapacitating them) then the effect of their fate point should probably still leave them out of the fight. Fate Points are designed to provide benefits to the individual, not the entire group.

On the other hand, if the effect of the crit is serious enough to call for the use of a Fate Point but might still allow them to contribute to the fight in some way (i.e. - your hand is lopped off and you are bleeding to death but you could still, potentially, get a shot off with the pistol in your other hand before you die) then I would probably give the player a chance to run away through a convenient hole in the enemy's lines that miraculously opens up after the near miss on their hand. If they choose to ignore the chance to escape and stick around at 0 Wounds to help their comrades, it then becomes their responsibility if they are forced to burn more Fate Points.

The alternative is just to have everyone go unconscious when they burn a Fate Point, so the remaining PCs in your example would have dropped one by one, burnt only one FP each, and lost the fight, but the Beastmen keep them captive instead of killing them or a band of Road Wardens miraculously appears and drives away the Beastmen just as the last PC falls. This smells a little of deux ex machina but that's actually what Fate Points are designed for (and as long as it's not keeping the PCs from being the main focus of the action I don't think the occasional miracle is going to ruin the game). The main idea being that the single Fate Point each of them burnt continues to "function" until the encounter is over to keep the PCs alive and you just have to figure out how to manipulate events to make that happen.
 

mhensley said:
The encounter with the eight beastmen in the last session solved that. Everybody lost fate points in that one. :cool:

Which brings up a question I've been meaning to ask. When a character burns a fate point to avoid death in a combat, should it save the entire group or just him? Also, should it take him out of combat entirely (unconscious, fell down a hole, saved by giant eagles, whatever) or should it just negate the one killing crit?

The problems I had in the above combat was that in the very first round, 2 of the 8 pc's were hit with nasty crits. They used their fate points to negate the crits and I ruled that they were knocked unconscious and out of the fight. The problem with this was now the remaining pc's were badly outnumbered and slowly got beat down. The only way out of this downward spiral was to start allowing the use of fate points to negate death but allow them to stay in the fight. Eventually, the lone remaining pc, a dwarf marine, killed the last of the beastmen after using up all of his fate points and getting his ribs broken.

If a fate point is used just to negate one crit without taking the pc out of the fight, it's very likely to cause them to lose more fate points due to them being at 0 wounds. And if you take them out the fight with the fate point, the rest of the group may suffer. What's the answer?
By the explaination of this usage in the book, each character would drop individiually and stay out of the fight. he will survive, but he might lose everything he had with him, depending on the circumstances. If all characters are dropped, they still survive somehow (but most likely their opponnts have stripped them of all equipment and maybe even captured them - though you should provide a fair/reasonable way to escape, otherwise there was no point).

If you let them stay in the fight, characters would lose Fate points to quickly - once at 0 wounds, each hit will mean a potential deadly critical and another "oppertunity" to lose a Fate Point. Which eventually would lead to the next battle killing the character without fail...
 

mhensley said:
The encounter with the eight beastmen in the last session solved that. Everybody lost fate points in that one. :cool:

Which brings up a question I've been meaning to ask. When a character burns a fate point to avoid death in a combat, should it save the entire group or just him? Also, should it take him out of combat entirely (unconscious, fell down a hole, saved by giant eagles, whatever) or should it just negate the one killing crit?

The problems I had in the above combat was that in the very first round, 2 of the 8 pc's were hit with nasty crits. They used their fate points to negate the crits and I ruled that they were knocked unconscious and out of the fight. The problem with this was now the remaining pc's were badly outnumbered and slowly got beat down. The only way out of this downward spiral was to start allowing the use of fate points to negate death but allow them to stay in the fight. Eventually, the lone remaining pc, a dwarf marine, killed the last of the beastmen after using up all of his fate points and getting his ribs broken.

If a fate point is used just to negate one crit without taking the pc out of the fight, it's very likely to cause them to lose more fate points due to them being at 0 wounds. And if you take them out the fight with the fate point, the rest of the group may suffer. What's the answer?

The rules seem to specify that spending a Fate Point means that your character will not die from the general circumstance that brought about its expenditure. In this case, the PC should be "taken out of the fight". Yes, this can put the rest of the party at greater risk but that's the way it goes. I can see no circumstance under which any member of the party should have to spend more than one fate point in a single combat.

Otherwise you get a circumstance where a PC get's knocked out by a critical hit upon which he spends a Fate Point. The next round the bad guy tries to coup de grace him and forces him to spend ANOTHER Fate Point. The next round the bad guy does the same thing and then the PC is probably out of Fate Points and the character is dead.
 

mhensley said:
If a fate point is used just to negate one crit without taking the pc out of the fight, it's very likely to cause them to lose more fate points due to them being at 0 wounds. And if you take them out the fight with the fate point, the rest of the group may suffer. What's the answer?

By the RAW, one Fate Point spares one character. You're absolutely right about the downward spiral. I think this is true for any RPG though. Encounters tend to be built for X number of characters and with each death, the combat becomes one degree harder, so I don't think this is a problem unique to WFRP, nor do I think it's one with an easy answer.

In my games, when a character burns a Fate Point, he's done for the encounter, spared by some incredible stroke of luck. However, the more I think about this, the less I'm convinced about its worth. As you pointed out, spending a Fate Point does nothing to assist the group, but more importantly, it tells that player to go "sit in the corner" while the rest of the action plays out. This isn't fun for two reasons: a player has nothing to do and loses interest in the encounter and the rest of the group is left a man/woman short. In one sense, this is a good lesson for players; it teaches them to run away when the chips are down, which as Joe pointed out a couple of pages back, is a good strategy for this (and any gritty) game. And because the character spent a Fate Point, he's going to survive the encounter no matter what, so odds are, he'll be able to rejoin his allies later.

The problem with just letting the Fate Point blanket protect all the characters is that one of the balancing factors for elves, and to a lesser extent dwarfs, is that these characters have fewer Fate Points. If a FP expenditure can save the entire party's bacon, then these characters are not nearly as penalized as they should be.

So, I don't really have a good answer, though rest assured, I'm thinking about it. Here are some variant uses you might try:

One thing you might try is to let a character spend a Fate Point to negate a Critical Hit, but stay on his feet and keep fighting.

Or, you could allow characters to spend a Fortune Point or Fate Point (if you're cruel like me) to instantly regain a number of Wounds equal to their TB.

Or, you might dispense with Fate Points for PCs altogether and instead offer a group pool of Fate Points. Have characters roll FP as normal, but subtract 1 from their total. They add this value to the group's Fate Point pool. At any time, characters can spend Fate Points from the pool to gain some leverage with an encounter. I'd suggest that characters can build back up the pool by spending 100-200 XP per point they would add.

Anyway, these are just some random thoughts. Good luck.
 

rjs said:
So, I don't really have a good answer, though rest assured, I'm thinking about it. Here are some variant uses you might try:

One thing you might try is to let a character spend a Fate Point to negate a Critical Hit, but stay on his feet and keep fighting.

Or, you could allow characters to spend a Fortune Point or Fate Point (if you're cruel like me) to instantly regain a number of Wounds equal to their TB.

Or, you might dispense with Fate Points for PCs altogether and instead offer a group pool of Fate Points. Have characters roll FP as normal, but subtract 1 from their total. They add this value to the group's Fate Point pool. At any time, characters can spend Fate Points from the pool to gain some leverage with an encounter. I'd suggest that characters can build back up the pool by spending 100-200 XP per point they would add.

Anyway, these are just some random thoughts. Good luck.

I agree that this dynamic can put a damper on the fun of an individual player. However what I've observed in our group is that the player whose character is down is still watching the remainder of the combat play out with great interest. Because the ultimate fate of his character is likely to be dictated by the outcome of the fight. It will likely determine whether he simply "took a nasty shot to the head that had me out for a couple minutes" or "wakes up naked, a captive of the beastmen".

However as another random House Rule idea, what about if the character spends a Fate Point to avoid death (or serious maiming or whatever) BUT, if the party as a group spends Fortune Points equal to one per party member then the PC in question may fight on (and I like your suggestion of giving him TB in Wounds)? That way keeping the character in the fight isn't a free lunch. But it's also the sort of thing where if somebody takes a REALLY nasty crit (thanks to good old Ulrick's Fury) on Round 1, the Player still has a good chance of participating in the battle (because early in the fight there is a better chance of other PC's having Fortune Points to spend). If on the other hand they have the enemy almost beaten then perhaps they will opt to let the PC stay out of combat for the last round or two.

Just for the sake of completeness, another House Rule that I'll be implementing for my next game is Fortune Points being spent for "Dramatic Edits". I'll be running a Pirates of the Caribbean game using Warhammer and I want a mechanic the players can use when they feel like buckling some swash. So if you spend a Fortune Point you can have there suddenly be a rope you can swing from to move halfway across the ship. Or if you want your opponent to step in a bucket then spend that Fortune Point and suddenly you're at +20 to Maneuver or trip him.

I'm also going to divorce Fortune Points from Fate Points and hand them out for doing daring and heroic actions rather than being a set number each day derived from your Fate Points. In our current game we have discovered that the PC's that are always in the "thick of it" trading axe blows with the enemy are the most likely to have to spend a Fate Point whereas the guys in the back shooting their bows or casting spells rarely ever have to spend them. I don't like that the folks doing the lions share of the truly heroic stuff have less points to spend trying to do more of it while the more conservative players have plenty to spend and a lesser need to spend them.
 

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