D&D Wargaming: Good OOC

[Fieari]

If we restart the game, then yes. (hopes bribery will work)

 

[Wrahn]

An important one that a lot of people used seems to be the Mirror of Mental Prowess. It functions off of Clairvoyance, which has a range of Long (as opposed to unlimited in 3.0). So it can spy and open a portal, but it'll only go a few hundred yards. It also takes 10 minutes to cast, in the same way that Scrying takes an hour to cast. (Greater Scrying takes only a round and lasts an hour per level, but it much harder to get). It makes scouting creatures much more important if a stationary and invulnerable magical sensor can't be used to find every bit of intelligence.

This is the relevant passage about the mirror of mental prowess:

View other places as if with clairvoyance, but vision extends even onto other planes if the viewer is sufficiently familiar with them.

I believe it is saying that it operates *like* the Clairvoyance sensor and that you can not scry people, only places, but is not the Clairvoyance spell thus is not limited by range.

My "Fortress" is on a different plane, I do not believe that you interpretation would effect where I could scry at all and that is my problem. If it can scry on different planes (And anywhere on those planes as it is not seperated by distance buy by levels of existence, any point on a different plane is the same non-distance away from any other point), it make no sense that scrying a different plane gives you greater scrying ability than it would on the plane you are on.

 

[nameless]

I took that passage to mean that you could see creatures that are ethereal, or astral, or shadow, or whatever other plane they could be on while you look at that spot. For instance, an ethereal cleric in the middle of your stronghold might be visible if you wanted to look at the ethereal in that area instead of the material.

Personally, I think it's pretty useless if it can only go to Long range, but they did it on purpose, for whatever reason. If you want to scry, get a Crystal Ball, it's cheaper and more portable than the Mirror anyways.

 

[Wrahn]

I disagree on that interpretation, though I can see where one might come to that conclusion. I think it is pretty clear that the intend it to extend to different planes of existence by the statement "That you are sufficently familiar with." Also using clairvoyance as a base already take into account what you can or can not see. Using the previous editions of D&D for reference, I don't think there is any doubt of what they intended.

The sheer fact that it is over 4 times the cost of a crystal ball should give you some indication that it is suppose to be more powerful not less.

Further:

Command Word: If no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it. Command word activation means that a character speaks the word and the item activates. No other special knowledge is needed...
...Activating a command word magic item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity

In other words, it does not take an hour to use a crystal ball (which I believe in the actual DMG they use as an example) nor does it take 10 minutes to use a Mirror of Mental Prowess.

 

[Wrahn]

Nameless and Wizwrm,

I was just thinking about something I think I should warn you about. I have been in the teleport ambush scenario in my real life campaign. A Demon lord was trying to kill us and in so doing, elevate itself to Princedom. Well finally we said enough was enough, used Gate to pull him to us and ambush the heck out of him (we still nearly died, but we managed to kill him)

This little trick is costlier in 3.5 and is a little obscure, it will only work on extraplanar creatures, so Dan, Zan, and Ashalla are safe, you two however, if someone gets creative, may have problems.

 

[nameless]

That tactic is questionable in any case. "Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to go through the gate." ... "Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event." Any specific target is undoubtedly a unique being, and I would argue to my grave that any specific target is not compelled to go through the gate against its will.

If I was DM in your game, I'd have said your idea was creative, but ultimately laughed at you.

And as far as the Mirror of Mental Prowess... yes, it is very expensive, and should be powerful. Since I have one now, I'd certainly like to get the most out of it. But the one line about "any plane that you are sufficiently familiar with" doesn't explicitly overrule the range entry of Clairvoyance, but rather, seems to overrule the "vision doesn't reach to other planes" text of the spell. To me, it's a case of using the spell from the PHB, and changing what it tells me to change, which is not very much.

Fieari will make a ruling either way, at some point. If he wants to get less Scrying, then I think he'll probably rule the spell to have limited range, just because it's convenient for the purposes of this game.

 

[Wrahn]

That tactic is questionable in any case. "Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to go through the gate." ... "Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event." Any specific target is undoubtedly a unique being, and I would argue to my grave that any specific target is not compelled to go through the gate against its will.

If I was DM in your game, I'd have said your idea was creative, but ultimately laughed at you.

Since it specifies you can call individuals which is seperate from unique being, then in fact you would be mis applying the rule and laughing at me would only be making a fool of yourself. Argue all you want, you are not a unique being, a demon lord perhaps (but he was just an advance Balor).

Just for reference:

By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling.

And as far as the Mirror of Mental Prowess... yes, it is very expensive, and should be powerful. Since I have one now, I'd certainly like to get the most out of it. But the one line about "any plane that you are sufficiently familiar with" doesn't explicitly overrule the range entry of Clairvoyance, but rather, seems to overrule the "vision doesn't reach to other planes" text of the spell. To me, it's a case of using the spell from the PHB, and changing what it tells me to change, which is not very much.

If you look at my original arguement, it said that the mirror being more powerful scrying another plane, that it is on scrying the one it is on was ridiculous, it was just in support of that arguement.

 

[Carnifex]

That tactic is questionable in any case. "Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to go through the gate." ... "Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event." Any specific target is undoubtedly a unique being, and I would argue to my grave that any specific target is not compelled to go through the gate against its will.

If I was DM in your game, I'd have said your idea was creative, but ultimately laughed at you.

.

I'm afraid you've misunderstood the meaning of 'unique being'. A unique being refers to genuine one-of-a-kind characters - like a demon lord. A leonal or suchlike is *not* a unique being, even if they are individuals with quite specific character.

However, IIRC - you can't open a gate onto somewhere else in the same plane, only other planes, can't you? So as long as the celestials stay primarily on the material plane then they should be fine. Not to mention that even if they do get caught out, they probably get a Will save. Furthermore, the enemy would have to cast the Gate in an area not covered by a Forbiddance so the called celestial, who will most likely have an innate teleportation abilitiy, can just 'port away back home.

I don't think we really need to worry too much about that tactic, but it's something to keep in mind, I guess.

 

[Wrahn]

I'm afraid you've misunderstood the meaning of 'unique being'. A unique being refers to genuine one-of-a-kind characters - like a demon lord. A leonal or suchlike is *not* a unique being, even if they are individuals with quite specific character.

However, IIRC - you can't open a gate onto somewhere else in the same plane, only other planes, can't you? So as long as the celestials stay primarily on the material plane then they should be fine. Not to mention that even if they do get caught out, they probably get a Will save. Furthermore, the enemy would have to cast the Gate in an area not covered by a Forbiddance so the called celestial, who will most likely have an innate teleportation abilitiy, can just 'port away back home.

I don't think we really need to worry too much about that tactic, but it's something to keep in mind, I guess.

While in principle I believe you are correct, a couple of things occured to me, to prompt me to place the warning. First, while Gate can not be used to travel from point to point in the same plane, it does not make that specification under the calling of a being. Though, were I running the game I would impose that limitation, it does not prevent said ambushers from going to another plane (after all they have access to gate) and doing it from there.

Second, there is no save versus gate and no spell resistence either and most of the the immunities assume an unbeatable spell resistence. A case could be made that forbiddence couldn't protect against it as there is no spell resistence allowed (for instance it was possible to maze an Iron Golem in 3.0). However in the current climate, I doubt that particular argument would fly.

I agree, it is unlikely that it will come into play, it was just a piece of my experience that I thinking of and thought I should warn those who it may (though unlikely) effect. To my knowledge they have no clue who the "Battle Lords" are other than Dan and Zan, so this is just something to keep in mind once the game advances.

 

[Tyreus]

None of the current battle lords know who I am, the one's that did are piles of ash. Right?