D&d We Have Became Too Nice

[jasper]

In the 3E dumbed down thread and other, people complained that 3e is not deadly with it CR junk.
This is wrong. 3E goes out of it way to provide a chance for survival and the modules go out of it way.
Letting the whole party survive or not having at least 1 dead Pc has been something you no longer see in the modules. Look at White Plume and some E.G.G. comments on how deadly D&D used to be. In White Plume falling into lava sucked.
But as I game from 1 to 3 the modules have became NICER. The monster matched the party power or it was well below in some 2 ed modules.
Now 3E as some say is computer RPG. Because the game mind set is to match the party.

Can we change?
Yes we as DM’s and modules should have an Extra room or encounter. You know the room, where you know your the extra red shirt beaming down with the good ole captain.
Now Forge of Fury did have CR10 creature but I have not heard anyone dying from it. Plus the module goes out of way for you to be Nice and let the party escape.

Does 3e have to been combat heavy? No like the other editions the rules are set up for combat x.p. but once you get tired 5 th level party slaying 10 th level 1 st edition party. Let a 3 rd take on Cr 10 and they 5 th level.

Read the rule book and notice the alternate story award x.p. wording.

You adventure writers include a bad nasty in the dungeon so the party either has run away, sell the hobbit to it for a tasty snack, or die!

Go for the TPK if the players are too stupid to run or don't believe the ancient green dragon would not eat the party if they attack when it want just one horse.

 

[Furn_Darkside]

In White Plume falling into lava sucked..

In 3E- falling into lava gets you 20d6 points of damage. That does not seem fun to me.

As for your overall point- it is up to the dm to alter published adventures to what they deem is appropriate.

FD

 

[Mahiro Satsu]

3e may feel nicer, but it still has bite. Heck, my party of 8th level pc's just had two die in a fight with Orcs. Orcs!!! sniffle.

 

[ladyofdragons]

whether or not character deaths occur is wholely up to the GM, and has nothing to do with game edition. in 1E and 2E I've heard tales of GMs who have character deaths in their campaigns on a monthly basis, and others who go for years without a character death, both from GMs who use modules and those who create their own adventures. There is certainly room for mass-destruction of parties in 3E modules. just subtract a level or two from the suggested party level in the back, add in some higher CR monsters, and I'm sure you can kick off a few party members, if that's your goal.

Personally, I prefer a low rate of character deaths (our 6-year running game has had exactly one death, which occurred last month). But I'm more into roleplaying than mega-bash combat, and it's hard to maintain party flow and growth of relationships if people keep dying.

oops, an edit. we did also have one important party hireling/npc who died a couple years ago, was a tragic blow because we'd all come to respect him quite a lot.

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

Not deadly enough?
Tell that to the poor orcish savage tribesman (A PC) who is stapled to the sewer wall in the ruins last weekend.
Phhhht! Phhht! That's a crit threat against AC 25, and a AC 27.
What? Aw man! They both got me.
That's a 21 HP and a 7 HP.
I'm at -14.
OK, the orcish warrior walks out into the hallway and peers nearsightedly into the darkness. Two arrows come streaking out of the darkness, and pin him to the the wall, followed by two more that pin his corpse that much further.

Not believing that the Green Dragon will eat them if they don't ante up a horse? Not my players. They'll unass that horse faster than you can say "Glue Factory".

You can't go by CR. I don't know how many people I have to tell this too. CR is a basic guideline, and the rules for calculating CR's are flat out broken.

As for your problem, it sounds like it lies in the hands of the GM. I could name off dozens of examples where my players (who are pretty smart and canny) have had thier backs to the wall by monster who were not god-like powered.
Either the GM isn't playing the monsters like they should be, or he is underestimating the players.

And I've had a group of 1st level PC's beat the stuffings out of a CR 5 monster, did I award them full XP? No. I estimated the Encounter Level as 1 (Jumping out and bushwacking a wounded Yuan-Ti is not CR 5) and awarded XP according to Encounter Level. Oooh, 300 XP to divvy up between 6 characters. The whopping 50XP!

 

[Henry]

Two adventures from WotC stand out in my mind - Lord of the Iron Fortress, and Bastion of Broken Souls. Those are two modules with some lethal challenges in them, to be sure.

However, I think what you are focusing on is that CR encounters are EXPECTED to be survived. In the past, DM's seemed to line things up with a 60/40 success rate or even 50/50. Now, however, the standard is "does it use up 15 to 25% of the party resources?" not "How many PC's does it kill?"

This shift has occurred over decades, not overnight. While still lethal encounters exist, the "standard" encounter is weighted heavily toward the PC's. In an age of role-play development, I beleive this is really as it should be. The threat of death should be present, but not overwhelming. In White plume mountain, there were myriad ways to die by bad rolls of the dice. However, this does not keep the average player coming back to the table if his characters frequently die - only devoted players. This paradigm shift is for obvious reasons.

There's nothing wrong with playing a "pedal to the metal" campaign - but for the general health of the game as a whole, it's not the way that the game designers needed to take it.

 

[John Crichton]

As a DM and a player, I don't like PC death. When I DM (which is what I mostly do) the encounters are fair but deadly. I use CR as a guideline. I'll usually fall back on my old 2e habit of balancing HD and special powers/item of the party with the HD and special properties of the enemy and go from there.

If a PC does something stupid or just acts carelessly then it's fair game. They leave their fate up to the dice. When I plan something out I expect the PC's to be paying attention when we play. That is the surest way to get killed. But gearing an encounter against the PC's is the easiest way to get them all killed. In the adventuring career of a PC, they will have many more chances of something unlucky happening to them so I feel that I don't have to make something overly deadly.

So on that note, I don't believe CR's are "broken" or that D&D has become too nice or docile. 3e is just the best system that has come out so far and has had the most documentation for it. It's only natural to have a better description of how to hand out XP than in previous incarnations. But as an earlier poster stated, all the rules are basically guidelines. The DM must modify them to fit certain situations. There are many grey areas and the rules while they may seem it, are not all black and white.

This consequently means having a good grasp of the rules is a must. The DM should be a person with a strong understanding of the rules so he can bend them to fit his adventure properly. If a DM doesn't have time to learn the rules the PC's will either never come close to dying or be wiped out too quickly. Additionally, players with a knowledge of the rules will know the DM is "just fudging it" and will have less fun.

So, in closing, I think CR is a good tool. Especially for beginning DM's. It also helps establish some kind of conformed method of determining how hard a sitution is to overcome across different games.

 

[Victim]

In the 3E dumbed down thread and other, people complained that 3e is not deadly with it CR junk.
This is wrong. 3E goes out of it way to provide a chance for survival and the modules go out of it way.
Letting the whole party survive or not having at least 1 dead Pc has been something you no longer see in the modules. Look at White Plume and some E.G.G. comments on how deadly D&D used to be. In White Plume falling into lava sucked.
But as I game from 1 to 3 the modules have became NICER. The monster matched the party power or it was well below in some 2 ed modules.
Now 3E as some say is computer RPG. Because the game mind set is to match the party.

Can we change?
Yes we as DM’s and modules should have an Extra room or encounter. You know the room, where you know your the extra red shirt beaming down with the good ole captain.
Now Forge of Fury did have CR10 creature but I have not heard anyone dying from it. Plus the module goes out of way for you to be Nice and let the party escape.

Does 3e have to been combat heavy? No like the other editions the rules are set up for combat x.p. but once you get tired 5 th level party slaying 10 th level 1 st edition party. Let a 3 rd take on Cr 10 and they 5 th level.

Read the rule book and notice the alternate story award x.p. wording.

You adventure writers include a bad nasty in the dungeon so the party either has run away, sell the hobbit to it for a tasty snack, or die!

Go for the TPK if the players are too stupid to run or don't believe the ancient green dragon would not eat the party if they attack when it want just one horse.

Heart of Nightfang Spire, cough, cough.


I don't see that much difference in deadliness between older adventures and newer ones. I think that 3e has greater intrinsic danger. Common orcs used to have a THACO of 20 and did base weapon damage. Now typical orcs have +3 attack and do weapon damage +2. AC seemed to be much more effective at preventing damage at lower levels in previous editions. Pretty much the same equipment gets a much lower level of defense. AC 0 against orcs in 1e isn't the same as AC 20 against orcs in 3e. The orcs will hit more often and do more damage when they do. Often times, monsters didn't do much damage because they didn't get strength bonuses. A low level group in 1e can go toe to toe with baddies that would be dropping people in one hit and then cleaving in 3e. So encounters of around the PCs level are more dangerous.

Also, there are much better sure things in earlier editions. Sleep spell verus 1 HD enemies = 4d4 out of the fight with no save. When I drop that it the right time, I pretty much instantly win the battle single handed. And since Elves are the most attractive PC race, it's more difficult to turn the tables. In 3e, there's no way to drop enemies like that. Not only does sleep hit fewer targets, but it also has a save now. So not only are equal level fights more dangerous, but some of the PCs main weapons have been weakened. Similarly, Stoneskin used to be an expensive, but exceptional defense. It lasted all day and could stop any physical attack. Now lasts for a few hours and knocks off 10 damage.

Finally, there are situations when the PCs are outclassed. I've found that PCs in 3e are outclassed much sooner. Things go much more quickly from even fight to tough fight, to the no chance fight. For example, a group of orcs used be a pretty easy fight, some ogres would be pretty tough, a mid level character could be the main boss. Now you'd have a hard time getting a 1st level group past one ogre. In earlier editions, a 9th level group could have a chance against just about anything in the book. They might just scrape by and take some losses, but they might be able to do it. Now, the same group would get pasted by many of the tings they used to beat. So now the old potential TPK fights might now be instant death and the old tough fights can now be near TPK.

 

[Cloudgatherer]

Try running a group through the ELH adventure... Unless you are nice, the party will simply die at one point....

 

[Nightfall]

Two words: Rappen Athuk.