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D&D with a twist

Mallus

Legend
Some more responses...

Go with the 'Dune Sea' angle; wind-skiffs plated with Cavorite and teaming with pirates racing a few feet above sea or sands. Basically, I just the idea of 'Cavorite', or any kind of anti-gravity metal. Its cool. And the pirates could be after lighter-than-air 'dubloons' made from it.

So the city is big? Sounds very Dying Earth, or Book of the New Sun --the city in that, Nessus, is something like several 100 leagues in diameter. Is that what you're going for? I like that kind of science fantasy approach; the last, nearly-exhausted city on a nearly-exhausted planet, filled with scavengers and pirates; practically infested with demon gods.

And bug-men from the Moon, come in search of ancient devices, artifacts, and, of course, foxy ladies in leather outfits. I think every setting could use bug men from the Moon, especially if they're armed with deadly crystals. And on the make.

I'm seeing the city on the coast, next to the silt-choked remnants of a mighty, probably toxic, river. With part of the city drowned by the rising sea, dotted with islands made from the remains of tall building complexes, and the city's other side slowly getting buried under the rising sands. Maybe the city is the last source of potable water, from ancient water purification/desalination machines.

About the casters: I'd stick with clerics (using restricted spell lists/domains) and psionics. It just strikes me as cleaner. If that does work for you, take a look at d20 Modern's handling of spellcasters. 'Full' caster classes are 10 level PrC's, which you can enter around 5th. Higher than 5th level spells don't exist. And there are rules for non-casters using ritual magic (the rirtual stuff is in Urban Arcana).

Making PC casters multiclass means they'll stick to self-buffing spells and the like (rather than lob low level spells at opponents who'll probably save), and that sort of thing is done better under the psionic rules.
 

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Yes, the city is big. It covers the entire world, as a matter of fact. Nobody knows who originally built it--they're just gone. No tombs, no necropoli; no nothing except their ancient buildings. All. Over. The. Place. Nobody is "native" to this world, or if they are, nobody knows who they are.

And naturally, many of the buildings are crumbling into ruins, swallowed up by drifting sand, lying on the bottoms of shallow seas, more than half buried under later vegetation growth, been scoured away or buried by advancing glaciers, torn up by later inhabitants to salvage their brick/stone for newer construction, etc. Entire ecosystems have grown up around them in the thousands of years since their abandonement, and later reclamation by the more modern races. Actually, the image from the movie A.I. with Manhattan submerged but with the taller buildings sticking out above the water is probably the only part of that movie that I enjoyed. I'm hoping to consciously imitate that a bit.

I do like airships a lot. They featured prominantly in the last campaign I ran, which is my only hesitation with using them again. I don't want to feel too much like I'm retreading former ground here. But I'll have to see.

As for the classes; that was also a conscious decision; I don't want to pull too far away from "nominal" D&D, because the last game I played was so far from nominal D&D that it really couldn't even be called D&D anymore, in all fairness. It was at least as different from D&D as d20 Star Wars is.

It's entirely possible that the reasons I'm making these decisions are kinda arbitrary and silly--(I've already done something too much like that?!) but it bothers me, anyway, to do otherwise.

EDIT: Hey, still working through that Story Hour. Still brilliant. I even stole a line from it for my sig. :)
 

Remathilis

Legend
Another route to go is spontaneous casters only; magic lore is limited (only 45-55 spells know per caster, ever) but powerful. Casters have a few tricks up there sleeves, but they can do them alot.

Side bennies:

* Restriction on magic item creation: not every caster is going to have access (deity, spellbook) to every spell.
* Uniquely flavored casters.
* Less bookkeeping.
* Faster gameplay (fewer options = less descion time).
* a more "magic is talent" feel.

How to do it.

* Combine Wizard and Sorcerer: Make the Sorcerer Int casting and give him all knowledges.
* Replace the Cleric with the Dragonlance Mystic. In a pinch, favored soul would work too. (actually, both could exist in the same setting; one is a more martial version, one is more spellcaster). Of course, make them pick "demonic" domains...
* Spirit Shaman for the Druid, or make the druid spontaneous using UA.
* Give Paladins/Rangers spells known = spellthief/Hexblade, or replace them with the CW spell-less, or even the UA Prestige Classes
* Keep Bard as is.
* Psionics work well is this variant too. Just not the Eurodite.

Good luck
 

Baron Opal

First Post
Wow. This is turning into an excellent parellel plane that I can torment... er... send my players to. I always enjoy your brainstorm, J-Dawg.
 


Another entry; another crosspost from my blog:
How about adversaries? Does this twist to the D&D setting do anything to suggest that unusual antagonists might dominate any game set here? If so, how can I utilize that to my advantage to make the setting more unique and memorable?

These are the burning questions that are searing through my mind today. Actually, that's not exactly true; I just want to make sure I milked the twist idea for all it was worth before moving on, and by scraping the bottom of the barrel, that's what I came up with. Either way, it gives me a topic to discuss today.

So--the setting is an abandoned ancient world that's been completely urbanized and then resettled by the human(oid) races after the fact. It doesn't have any natural gods; the only beings that will answer prayers here are archfiends. Nobody knows what happened to the original inhabitants, or even who they might have been. What does that leave me with?

Well, it suggest that outsiders may play a more prominent role than normal. Not only did everyone currently living here have to have ultimately come from somewhere else somewhere in their ancestry, but the servitors of the "gods" might be common. I also imagine that worship of archfiends is a complicated, potentially messy practice, with lots of backstabbing, mystery cults, secret initiations and other stratification. This leads the way for lots of bizarre "cult of personality" things around any greater fiend that manages to make its way to the world and stay there for very long.

Also, lots of classed humanoid antagonists rather than "monsters." Lots of intrigue, spies, gangs, etc. Politics, politics, politics. All this makes sense for a heavily urbanized world. But, many of the urban areas are in severe decay, and have undergone an almost "back to nature" process, but would an urbanized world have much natural life forms left on it? Possibly. Especially if the builders were… into genetic experimentation of some kind. Breeding programs that left all kinds of bizarre horrors lurking in the sewers, in the abandoned districts, or even just in the shadows. When you add in magical intervention and fiendish rule of the area, I can easily imagine a lot of the more "monstrous" creatures, particularly undead and abominations creeping around in the background.
 

Mallus

Legend
I was wondering where this thread went...

More interesting stuff J-Dawg... You familiar with Zelazny's Lord of Light by any chance? For some reason, your last post reminded me of it and its weird alien races that got incorporated into the colonists complicated faux-Hindu mythology. Plenty of backstabbing, barely described indiscribable horrors (he names one race The Mothers of the Terrible Glow, and I love him for it), and mostly-forgotten history in that book.

Got a question for you: how do you convey a single planet-covering ruined city to the players? Its a classic SF trope, but it usually involves describing the planet from orbit. How do you get from a "The world has many ruined cities" to "My God, its a single city!" Is that kind of reveal important? Isn't finding that out going to be one of the 'puzzles' of the setting?

And I see I've been sigged, or at least my cynical, gin-sodden namesake character has. Cool. Did you finish the Story Hour yet? More installments are coming, or so I hear...
 

I am not familiar with it. But--hey! My local public library has it! Guess what my newest research project will be? :D

As to your second question; I'm not entirely sure. I hadn't given it much thought. In fact, I guess I had kinda assumed that I'd make it common knowledge; if nobody has more than a few dozen generations--maybe a few score--before they can find an ancestor that came from somewhere else, at least in legend, and everyone knows that no matter where you go you see ruins of this gigantic city, then I had kinda thought that the nature of the world might just be common knowledge. with the puzzle being how it got to be that way, who/what and where are the original builders. Whew. That's a long sentence.

But you've given me a great idea if that's not true; what if they actually can get into orbit?! What if there's a "gate" somewhere that leads a small moon (or ancient space station... heh.) in close orbit where you can actually see the city covering the entire globe?

Yeah; I cribbed one of your better lines. I still have a few posts to go (work's been somewhat busy for me, so I can't sit and read for hours like I'd like) though. Still enjoying it immensely.
 

Another blog post, another cross post:
I was reading through my copies of the original Dungeoncraft articles, and decided to take things a little bit out of order. Ray has the development of the mythology/cosmology and religion a few steps into the RWDM, but because one element of my hook is based specifically on that (the archfiends as gods) I think that step of campaign development is crying out to be done immediately. Keeping in mind the 1st rule of Dungeoncraft: Never create more than you have to, I'm gonna just touch on some mythology/cosmology at fairly high level, not develop it in great detail. I also haven't mentioned the 2nd rule of Dungeoncraft yet; for every campaign element you develop, create a corresponding secret. However, I clearly need to get off my arse and start populating the world with secrets too. I've had some great ideas for some based on what's already there, but I'll probably defer secret creation until my next post.

So. I don't need to identify the gods of the setting, because TSR, Wizards of the Coast, and Green Ronin have helpfully done that for me: the archfiends are fairly well-known already. Green Ronin's Book of Fiends is probably the most useful source; it came up with an entirely cosmology of demon lords and assigned them domains and minor rituals that spellcasting classes (such as the cleric) would need to do daily to recover their spells. I can come up with some quick and dirty details of religious observance later; for now it's sufficient for me to simply say that the archfiends take the place of the gods, and that clerics can only be clerics of them, not of gods, not of ideals, etc. In fact, for simplicity's sake, I'm tempted to merely say that all clerics serve the entire pantheon of archfiends, so that domain and favored weapon selection can be more in the hands of the player. Players will be encouraged, after picking their domains, to try and map them to a particular patron or favored deity, but it won't be strictly necessary. The only thing here, is that clerics absolutely DO NOT have access to the Good domain, which is unsurprising. Other divine spellcasters, such as Favored Souls, etc. also get the powers from these archfiends, and indirectly, for that matter so do guys like druids and rangers, although their "worship" of the archfiends is, at best, indirect. This begs the question of whether or not the paladin has a place in this campaign setting. I think the role is interesting, but who/what is powering their spells? For that reason, I think the paladin has to come off the list of classes that are available. If a player wants to play the paladin role, they should use another class instead (maybe the Knight, Samurai or simply the Fighter) and roleplay it as a paladin.

How in the world does a D&D style world get to be in such a dire pickle anyway (I'd like to see someone stat out a Dire Pickle…) where there are no gods of good, and the only gods are equated to the Archfiends? And what are some other ramifications of having a world presided over by archfiends? Let's answer that second question first.

Alignment probably plays a slightly different role in this game. While any good individuals probably stand out more starkly in a world such as this, the major ongoing battle between good and evil can't be a feature of the campaign in the same sense that it is in a normal campaign. For the most part, that battle's already been fought and won, and evil was apparently triumphant. I also think that the law/chaos axis is useful as a quick shorthand before you've got more fleshed out personalities defined for characters, but as a major philosophical underpinning of a campaign setting, I find it somewhat lacking. So, I will de-emphasize alignment to a great degree. This will have broad implications for the cosmology, since fiends will no longer be defined by their classic divisions (of D&D anyway) between devils and demons. While the rules and what not will, of course, be the same, the relationship between the various groups of fiends is not. A fiend is a fiend is a fiend. Particular demons and devils could share a homeplane, and be close allies. In fact, all the fiends are in congress with each other a fair amount, and fiend in this sense simply means "evil outsider." This would include such diverse groups as tanar'ri, baatezu, obyriths, yugoloths, demodands, oni (from Oriental Adventures and Creatures of Rokugan) and others, and for that matter probably includes creatures which are not traditionally classed as fiends, like slaadi and efreet. So the pantheon includes the major demon lords, detailed in such sources as The Book of FiendsThe Fiendish Codes I: Hordes of the Abyss and The Book of Vile Darkness (not to mention the forthcoming book Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells and any theoretical Fiendish Codex III book, if one ever comes out.) This can also include the slaad lords, and for fun, why not the Cthulhuian "pantheon" as well?

Each of these beings live in worlds (I've never really liked the word "plane") that are not necessarily different from their Great Wheel analog, except in the following area--they are not layered. Therefore, separate layers become actual unique planes in this cosmology. This will, of course, present a cosmology that is a bewildering layout of planes, which I will have "orbit" the material plane. I'll also combine a few of them; for instance, the layer of Hell called Phlegethos is already redundant in most respects to the Elemental Plane of Fire, and I don't care too much for the concept of Elemental planes anyway. So the City of Brass and the efreet are now placed firmly in Phlegethos, and it becomes the archtypical "fiery" plane. To use one example. Others will come up, no doubt, in play. Few have every tried to map this cosmology, and certainly no one has done so completely, but as few ever try to travel to the planes anyway, that's probably a moot point. To get to these planes, a traveler would have to enter the transitive plane. The normal cosmology has three such planes: the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane and the Plane of Shadow. To be honest with you, I have little interest in the Astral or Ethereal plane, so I'm going to completely ignore them. Spells that depend on them still work (which the exception of a few obvious spells that cause you to travel to/through them) but at no point will anyone ever enter them; for all intents and purposes they don't exist. So the Plane of Shadow becomes the sole transitive plane; the one through which you must travel to enter any of the other planes, and it is coterminous with all other planes.

Furthermore, the Shadowlands (an easier name for it than the Plane of Shadow) weren't always as they are today; it is the victory of the fiends over their good counterparts that has tainted them and turned them into the dark and fearsome place that they are. As a matter of fact, the good planes, which are completely unknown to the world today, still exist and are still coterminous with the Shadowlands too, they are just locked out of access to the Shadowlands (and hence to the Material plane as well) and are under constant seige by fiends. This suggests that one possible high level campaign goal can be to restore access to the good domains by breaking at least one of the sieges and cracking open the firm lock that the fiends have on access to the Material plane. This victory of the fiends is recorded somewhat in the various mythologies on the Material plane as one generation of gods replacing another, not unlike the Greek myth of the gods replacing the titans. However, few (if any) suspect the true nature of the conflict, and that the displaced gods were "good" or benevolent in relation to their replacements. Most, in fact, suspect the opposite to be true; that the current gods are as benevolent as mortals have any right to expect and that the former gods were even worse.
 
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Oh, wow! I totally lost track of this thread! Sorry, for the two people who were actually interested. Let me see if I can resurrect it...
The next thing Ray Winninger would have us develop is the "homebase" area where the PC's will begin play. I think for now I want to keep the PC's slightly isolated, so I'm going to set them in an area of the setting that has fallen to ruins. In fact, we'll say that it's a very large basin--think something along the size of the Great Basin in the American West. In fact, I like that a lot; this great basin is all filled up as a pluvial lake, as the real Great Basin was with Lake Bonneville. So we get salty, brackish and nasty water surrounded by gigantic red rock formations and crumbling buildings that form small islands, with the tatters of the ruined city all about. Most of the area has "gone wild" and is rife with predators and vegetation and savage, tribal humans and humanoids that practice cannibalism, head-hunting (and shrinking?) scalping (and not concert tickets either!) and other unpleasant hobbies.

However, there's a a few largish cities in the area and... raiding some of my former settings, we'll call two important ones Razina and Treçenze. To use a quick and dirty comparison, they are sort of like Port Royale and Tortuga respectively of the 17th century Caribbean. Razina is therefore an outpost and fort of a distant empire, operating under the auspices of a colonial governer, while Treçenze is a fairly anarchic hideout for pirates, thieves and traitors. It isn't actually governed per se by anyone, but there are some extremely wealthy self-styled nobility that have vast estates on the island (well, relatively speaking. No estates are vast on a small island in the middle of a pluvial lake) who employ virtual armies of bodyguards and peacekeepers, as well as spies, informants and other bureaucrats. A century or two ago, this was also an outpost of the Empire named above, but it has fallen into disuse and is now independent and officially nonexistant. We'll have the PC's start out in Treçenze which sounds to me like a fun place. :)
 

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