D&D with no Armour: could it work?

[Red Baron]

Another option I've seen work surprisingly well is simply to grant *all* characters (i.e., all creatures with at least one character class level) the Improved Combat Expertise feat as a bonus feat -- ignoring the usual prerequisites -- at BAB +1 (i.e., fighter-types start with it, and everyone else soon gets it).

(Anyone here ever played any Rolemaster, in which you could always shift your OB into DB as much as you wanted?)

This option changes the look and feel of combat a little, since most combatants are always putting at least a few points into defense, but that's just the way the cookie crumbles. At higher levels, the GM might have to tweak monsters' natural armor bonuses a little, but, honestly, I sometimes find myself having to do that anyway...

"Fighting defensively" and "total defense" are also your friend in an armorless game.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Rogues, Rangers & Monks with their good REF saves would get quite a power boost. How do fighters make up for this? I mean, really, a Fighter should be the best at anticipating incoming blows and avoiding them. Rogues avoid combat for a reason. Fighters should also be the best at parrying blows with a weapon on a regular basis (the Swashbuckler model).

It seems if you want to keep Fighters, Paladins & Barbarians as the premier Warrior-types, the Defense bonus should be linked to the BAB, not the REF save. There's a difference between Dodging/ Parrying/ Deflecting a sword strike, and avoiding an explosion.

But what about an arrow? There is also a difference between a sword strike and an arrow coming at you at 130 mph. Seems like the best option here would be melee attacks use a defense bonus since your skill with a sword makes a difference, but ranged attacks use a Reflex save since your skill with a weapon does not mean squat. Shield bonuses would be added to both Defense bonus and Reflex saves against ranged attacks.

Armor could provide damage reduction. Of course then you can get back to the whole armor versus weapon type thing. Chain - good DR for slashing and piercing, but poor DR against bludgeoning etc...

Getting too complicated for me...

 

[frankthedm]

Drop or adjust power attack in a low armor game. maybe a flat miss chance 5% per point of powerattack.

 

[snarfoogle]

For this problem, I'd give a Fort Save bonus to HP and a Reflex save bonus to AC, maybe nudge attacks to be a little more accurate and damaging if needed.

 

[drothgery]

It seems if you want to keep Fighters, Paladins & Barbarians as the premier Warrior-types, the Defense bonus should be linked to the BAB, not the REF save. There's a difference between Dodging/ Parrying/ Deflecting a sword strike, and avoiding an explosion.

Armor would have to have _some_ purpose. Damage Reduction?

I have WoT, but haven't played it, so I'm not as familiar with the rules as I could be.

[mentioning WoT is equivalent to a 'summon drothgery' spell]

In WoT, armor doesn't normally stacks class defense bonus. However, Armsmen (the quasi-fighters of the setting) and some prestige classes get the ability to stack armor and class defense bonus as a class ability. Also, class defense bonus progressions are independent of anything else.

 

[Ace]

I've been reading the D&D with no (magic) healing thread with interest.

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=91432&page=1&pp=20

I've also been thinking of doing D&D with no (or reduced) armour. So monsters would still get natural armour but PC armour would be cut off at some point (no armour at all, no mail, no plate, etc). There are plenty of setting which this would be useful for.

Any suggestions for doing this and keeping balance? I know some groups have been known to get by with no heavy armour. But my instinct is that fighter-types would be shredded. Any ideas on the best way to make d20 work while detaching this part of the rules?

If you want to do away with armor you will need an AC bonus system roughly equal to the amount of AC including magic bonus --

D&D is built on a set of core assumptions x gold + x magic + x capabilities to face y challenge -- basically the design is a mix of tactical resouce managment and roleplaying -- not everyone plays it that way of course but that is the design intent

You can adjust things easily enough but if it is done improperly it will mess up the game big time

An example

A troll is Cr 5 meaning it is a suitable encounter for a part of 4 5th level charcters with the standard stat array and magic items alotment

here are the old stats

Large Giant
Hit Dice: 6d8+36 (63 hp)
Initiative: +2 (Dex)
Speed: 30 ft.
AC: 18 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +7 natural)
Attacks: 2 claws +9 melee, bite +4 melee
Damage: Claw 1d6+6, bite 1d6+3
Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 5 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Rend 2d6+9
Special Qualities: Regeneration 5, scent, darkvision 90 ft.
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +4, Will +3
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 14, Con 23, Int 6, Wis 9, Cha 6
Skills: Listen +5, Spot +5
Feats: Alertness, Iron Will
Climate/Terrain: Any land, aquatic, and underground
Organization: Solitary or gang (2-4)
Challenge Rating: 5
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: By character class
Trolls speak Giant.


Now imagine if your PC's had no armor

Ingnoring the surprise round

5 rounds with the fighter, Rogue, Wizard and Cleric with initiative

stat blocked dropped

fighter (saving 5pts To Hit for AC) 2 hits at 12 each 14 points to the troll

Rogue 3 hits, 2 flanks 29 points with rapier

Cleric 2 heals, 1 buff , 1 smack down for 6 points

wizard Buff Buff mag Mis, lightning bolt burn hands call it 30 points


Troll: all out 3 claw hits, 3 bites and 1 rend --for 60 points (he got medoicre rolls) --

results 1 dead troll 1 dead rogue and 1 dead wizard

This is of course a gross simplification but the lack of armor can turn what is a simple attrition match (rough 25% of resources used) to a potential 50% player kill


However as long as AC amount at each level matches what would occur under normal rules and the powers that can be built into armor are available to the PCs' the system wil work fine

 

[Ourph]

There is really no need to adjust the rules. Players simply need to adjust their play. Fighting defensively, Expertise and Dodge become much more important. Fighter types will be weaker, so they will have to compensate, probably by running away more often. Stealth and scouting out challenges will become much more important than toe-to-toe fighting (and much easier without all those pesky ACPs).

It really depends on why you're eliminating armor. If you're doing so because you want to really mimic what things would be like if the PCs had no armor, then changing the rules around to make armor superfluous sort of misses the point. If you're going to change the rules so that the game plays exactly as if armor were included as normal, why exclude it in the first place?

 

[Bagpuss]

AC buff spells could become more popular and not just for arcane casters. You can see Potions of Mage Armour becoming common until they get perment magical armour effects, etc. So unless you restrict AC buffing spells as well you probably won't see a huge difference, except arcane casters will be buffing as much as clerics.