d20 backlash??

[Hand of Evil]

I don't see it, if no market for a product, no profit of in supporting a product. D20 is doing well, there is a lot of stuff out there, the problem to a degree is too many a-like products but this is not a bad thing as it shows that the market is strong enough to support it.

L5R was a niche D20 market, there was a hint of another asian flavored world coming out, ads in Dragon over a year ago, that never happened, I just don't think you can use a niche setting as signs of the whole.

 

[JoeGKushner]

For example, it is no surprise that d20 CoC did not succeed. As much as I admire what is in that book (esp. the GM advice section), the classic BRP approach is far more appropriate for Cthulhu.

Uh... based on what did d20 CoC not succeed? Any sales numbers or anything floating around the net?

Now just because Chaosium is too poorly run to have taken advantage of the new market that WoTC generated for them, doesn't mean that it's own book failed (and btw, did Pulp Cthulhu ever come out for BRP?)

I'm certainly not saying that d20 is for every one or every system. I love Hero, Rolemaster, Harp, GURPS, Exalted and other games but d20 is still the most popular game out there. Even the variants are more popular than many non-d20 based games. Conan, Mutants & Masterminds, and now apparently, C&C, are all doing quite well.

 

[Carnifex]

People have been saying for years now that there's a d20 backlash, the 'd20 bubble' has burst, we'll see loads of d20 companies die off - usually in a mythical time called 'next year' which is always around the corner but we never quite reach.

 

[francisca]

There is a definite movement away from d20 in some areas, but it's not like all of the chickens have left the coop. I think backlash is probably too strong of a word, but I do think some publishers and players are "over" some aspects of d20 and are moving on, even staying within the d20/OGL fold in some cases, witness C&C. (Some people feel D&D is too rules heavy, and desire something more rules-light. C&C is an attempt to answer that demand. Whether you feel that is a valid desire or if C&C satisfies that desire is a matter of opinion. Let's not turn this into another C&C thread.) Others are happy to put forth non-d20 system, like HARP and Savage Worlds, to name two examples of many.

I think part of it is that some of the shiny newness has worn off of d20, and simply slapping a d20 logo and a blurb saying "compatible with the 3rd edition of the most popular RPG" doesn't generate as many sales as it once did. Others simply never bought into d20.

 

[Numion]

I think that too many people published for d20 despite the system, not because they genuinely wanted to design for that system. Reason for this is obvious: they saw a possibility for huge sales and great profits.

That is not a sustainable business model. RPGs are a creative business, and shoehorning stuff into a system you don't like / aren't familiar with isn't going to work in the long run. Those that weren't that interested in d20 to begin with are going to fall out, and also a lot of those that were - there was just too many products available for the limited market.

I think that the good stuff will keep rolling out.

 

[Piratecat]

I think in a few years we will eventually see more original systems come out, and hopefully a rebirth of creativity.

I understand what you're trying to say - we'll see a growth in disparate rules systems - but I'd certainly argue that d20 throttles creativity. There are lots of examples out there belieing that claim. (and a lot of products supporting it, too - oh well. ) Personally, I'd rather have the creativity funneled into the setting instead of the game mechanics.

 

[Akrasia]

Uh... based on what did d20 CoC not succeed?

Well, based on the fact that the game is dead -- i.e. no new material is being produced for it, and Chaosium's new stuff does not support d20. Maybe Chaosium is indeed too poorly run to have taken advantage of CoC d20. I don't know about that. But the game is dead.

I have zero interest in debating this, in any case, except to remark that the BRP version is far more appropriate for the subject matter than the d20 system. I suspect that most CoC fans also realize this, hence the continued popularity of BRP CoC, and the abandonment of d20 CoC.

 

[Maggan]

CoC d20 a one off

Well, based on the fact that the game is dead -- i.e. no new material is being produced for it, and Chaosium's new stuff does not support d20. Maybe Chaosium is indeed too poorly run to have taken advantage of CoC d20. I don't know about that. But the game is dead.

I have zero interest in debating this, in any case, except to remark that the BRP version is far more appropriate for the subject matter than the d20 system. I suspect that most CoC fans also realize this, hence the continued popularity of BRP CoC, and the abandonment of d20 CoC.

As far as I remember, considering that the stated goal from WotC when doing CoC was "showing that it could be done with d20, and thereby showing the rest of the industry that they also could do d20 stuff", I would say CoC d20 was a success.

Also, the project was a one book deal from WotC. They never intended to do anything more than that, as a proof of concept for d20 development.

What I can agree on is that Chaosium's handling of the opportunity CoC d20 presented, or even the opportunity that d20 presented in itself, was a failure.

M.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Well, for someone who didn't want to debate it, you sure put a lot of explanation into it.

WoTC, from what I understand, had license to do one book. They did. Chaosium never followed up with new products. Pulp Cthulhu is over two, maybe three years late. Saying Cthulhu d20 failed because there are no new books for it is an inacurrate statement as there never were going to be any new, WoTC books, for it.

Saying Chaosium failed to support it on the other hand, is an apt statement. Many Chaosium fans do indeed prefer the BRP version but the d20 version brought in many new people who'd never bothered with CoC in the first place.

And as far as being dead... well it's been alive in several of my games. Heck, there are still people playing OD&D. So no, I disagree with you here. It didn't fail as it was a one-shot deal. Chaosium failed to support it. BIG difference.

Well, based on the fact that the game is dead -- i.e. no new material is being produced for it, and Chaosium's new stuff does not support d20. Maybe Chaosium is indeed too poorly run to have taken advantage of CoC d20. I don't know about that. But the game is dead.

I have zero interest in debating this, in any case, except to remark that the BRP version is far more appropriate for the subject matter than the d20 system. I suspect that most CoC fans also realize this, hence the continued popularity of BRP CoC, and the abandonment of d20 CoC.

 

[maddman75]

I certainly think that there's a ton of great, non-d20 systems out there. Not in spite of d20's success but because of it. The huge number of old school and totally new gamers that 3e brought into the fold are now playing, and some of them play something besides d20 as well. Unisystem, the new World of Darkness, Exalted, Riddle of Steel, and many others have come up in the last few years.

The golden age of gaming wasn't in the 80s when everyone played AD&D or Traveller. The golden age of gaming is right now.