d20 bubble bust?- High Prices, too many books

[woodelf]

I think I've been rightfully reprimanded. I'll put my trust in you that the non-d20 gaming industry is as healthy, if not healthier, than ever.

From where I come from, though, only about 10% of RPGs in my hobby shop are non-d20. I'll try a different hobby shop I guess.

First, a quote (reposted with permission) from someone who maybe actually knows. Though he's not claiming that non-D20 System stuff is doing any worse than others stuff. Mark isn't just speaking for his company, though that's obviously the one where he has the most authority, because he's been talking to a lot of other members of the GPA.

Releasing the Action! System under the OGL does not make money for GRG. People buying our books makes money for GRG. Unfortunately that's been on the decline. Even so, I don't attribute that to the Action! System being released under the OGL because it's apparent that sales are down nearly across the board in this biz.


Mark Arsenault
President, Gold Rush Games | http://www.goldrushgames.com

And while i'm not sure i can quote it, i can say that at least one (other) member of the GPA who actually does distribution for a lot of small-press guys (and thus knows lots of people's numbers) has repeatedly said that (1) non-D20 System stuff does much less well, (2) sales of all RPGs is down recently, and (3) D20 System sales have declined more than non-D20 System sales, narrowing the gap.

As for your game shop, yeah, maybe you need a better one. At a rough estimate, D20 System takes up about 3 out of 7 or 8 (i forget) roughly-equal-sized shelving units, albeit with the D20 System shelves often packed more tightly. WoD is basically an entire shelving unit itself. so, at a guess, 50% of the RPGs are D20 System, with only about half of that being D&D-compatible fantasy D20 System stuff. Oh, and i'm pleased to report that Pegasus Games does a masterful job of carrying small-press stuff, too. Usually, when i come in asking them about some obscure small-press game that's just come out, they already have it, it's on order, or they had it but sold it already. That goes for non-D20 System stuff as well as D20 System stuff. They got Magical Society: Culture & Ecology in without me even having to suggest it to them. Which [pleasantly] surprised me.

 

[Vigilance]

I feel the need to comment on why we designers dont use more of other people's content.

I don't think its because of all the crippled OGC, because people I've talked to about using material from have been pretty giving with closed content.

And I dont think its because we're prideful SOBs out to milk consumers with a bunch of fluff either.

I think its because I'd rather take my own stab at designing a rule to do X than use someone else's, because its a fun challenge for me to take my own shot.

If I wanted to play it safe and was overly concerned about money, I would have stayed in my position as an exec at a major department store chain where I made more money in a week than I do in a month (or two) now.

Chuck

Or naval rules. Or shaman and witch core classes.

While I agree with Phil that there are companies and products that do make good use use of OGC, there are a couple of things that work against an escalation of that trend.

1) The very glut of product that thread is talking about. When the d20 thing started, I thought I'd try to pick up every product released so I could see what other companies were doing. That lasted less than a year. There's so many books coming out you can't possibly keep tabs on them all. It could thus very easily be the case that there's OGC that you'd find useful for a particular book, but you don't know it exists.

2) Game designers tend to have a certain amount of pride. They want to be lauded for their own innovations, not patted on the back for reusing someone elses. Many d20 companies were founded by folks who looked at what was out there (both before and after 3E) and said, "I can do better than that!"

3) There's still a fear that if you go too far with OGC use, you'll get crap about it. For example, when I commissioned Skip Williams to write the Advanced Player's Manual, my wish list of features included a mass combat system. I found out at that point that Skip was working on one for Malhavoc already (Cry Havoc). I asked Skip if we he could strip that one down some, since it would seem stupid to have two different systems designed by the same guy in print. Even stripped down, Skip's system is 30,000 words (about 48 pages). I want it in the book, but part of me still fears that when the reviews hit, I'm going to hear about how much space was "wasted" reprinting something that's available in another book. On the other hand, Corwyl: Village of the Wood Elves, uses a lot of OGC and that hasn't been a problem for anyone as near as I can tell (though it's also a much shorter book).

 

[philreed]

Even stripped down, Skip's system is 30,000 words (about 48 pages). I want it in the book, but part of me still fears that when the reviews hit, I'm going to hear about how much space was "wasted" reprinting something that's available in another book.

As someone who believes in using OGC this is a problem I struggle with on a regular basis. I try to always ensure that no more than 25% of a product reuses OGC -- though I usually use use less than that -- but I'm always wondering if someone will complain about that reuse of OGC.

I suspect there will always be some people who applaud the reuse while there are others who boo the reuse.

On the other hand, Corwyl: Village of the Wood Elves, uses a lot of OGC and that hasn't been a problem for anyone as near as I can tell (though it's also a much shorter book).

I need to take a look at that still. I haven't seen it in my local store . . . yet. Can you give us an idea what OGC it uses?

 

[MonsterMash]

Its been interesting seeing that Necromancers latest releases have pretty much all gone straight through into the sales channels so that there is no warehouse stock left with the publishers, this has happened with both Tome of Horrors II and Mother of All Encounter tables, so it shows that the well established companies with a reliable brand still have sales holding up. Probably similar situation for Green Ronin and some of the other well regarded companies as well.

 

[trancejeremy]

I think improper section 15s make it almost impossible to use someone elses open content, without contacting the company to get the proper section. This is a huge problem, almost no one does section 15 properly. Usually they only leave out the relevent SRD or their own product, but if they get that wrong, how can you be sure they got the rest right?

Similarly, if you do uses someone elses content, and not update Section 15 correctly, you're basically just commited plagiarism. Or at the very least, you've put yourself at another company's mercy.

For instance, Mongoose used open content from Fading Suns d20 for the Conan RPG. But they forgot to put Fading Suns d20's Section 15 in Section 15 of the Conan OGL. (This probably wasn't deliberate, they used their own Noble power class for the Noble, and that was based on the Fading Suns Noble, and did cite Fading Suns in Section 15).

Technically, Mongoose should have to repair this breach within 30 days of becoming aware of it. Which would likely involve recalling all the books, and putting in an updated OGL (or something like that). That could be expensive.

Obviously, it won't happen, but it could. And if they didn't, Holistic could sue them for copyright infringement.

Of course, WOTC could sue Holistic for borrowing bits of the Star Wars RPG (which wasn't released under the OGL, period) for Fading Suns.

So anyway, my point is, if companies are sloppy about using the OGL, and just about everyone is (no offense, but it's true), then it's risky to use other people's open content.

 

[Sir Elton]

Phase Three is where we are now. In Phase Three, the people who sieved out of Phase One ("pent-up demand") who really intend to keep trying, were forged in the fires of Phase Two ("learning to be professionals"), and now we're in Phase Three, which I define as "honing the craft". The number of people doing OGL/D20 design "for a living" is now probably 100x the number who were doing it "for a living" in 1999. The result is that more creativity and innovation is being applied to the game system all at once than in any time in the game's history. The result should be a sprial of upward quality as these people learn from each other, feed on each other's ideas, take the best that is available and re-use it, and try to make their new innovations match the quality level of the stuff they are re-using.

Hey Ryan!

Some of us are still in Phase One ("pent-up demand") and are trying to move to Phase 3 ("honing the craft"). However, something has me concerned. The d20 Publishing movement (I can't really say "industry") is in the same place as the Record Industry was in forty years ago, after Woodstock. Most everyone in this racket is doing it because they can and they love to.

Although I dare say that some people are in it for the money, and are completely overcome with "Frontlist Syndrome." Most are doing it because they love to. What concerns me is that the D20 Publishing movement may become like the Record Industry is now. An industry concerned with the money and not the art.

In a real way, you are creating Art with d20 System. World Building, writing prose, that sort of stuff. In another Real Way, you are making a game be that much better with new rules and the innovative perspective of what you can do when playing the game. The best satisfaction you get out of publishing d20 products is often when you do it for the love of the game or for the sake of using your creativity rather than doing it just for the money or Prestige. It's just like novel writing. The same consequences do apply.

 

[Pramas]

As someone who believes in using OGC this is a problem I struggle with on a regular basis. I try to always ensure that no more than 25% of a product reuses OGC -- though I usually use use less than that -- but I'm always wondering if someone will complain about that reuse of OGC.

Well, the Advanced Player's Manual is big enough that even 48 pages is less than 25%, and it doesn't use any other OGC. And really, when you look at the big picture, it shouldn't be a problem. The book has a potential audience of at least 100,00 people and Malhavoc has only sold a few thousand copies of Cry Havoc so odds should be in our favor. However, I often see people say things like "I only buy d20 from GR and Malhavoc", so I suspect we are sharing a lot of consumers.

I need to take a look at that still. I haven't seen it in my local store . . . yet. Can you give us an idea what OGC it uses?

The Section 15 is below. For the most part, OGC is used in small chunks. A spell from this book, a feat from that book, etc. I think the biggest reuse is the Greater Treant from Goodman Games' Complete Guide to Treants. Also, several books in the Section 15 are only there because of license requirements, not because any content we used came from there.

15 COPYRIGHT NOTICE
Open Game License v 1.0 Copyright 2000, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
System Reference Document Copyright 2000-2003, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Skip Williams, Rich Baker, Andy Collins, David Noonan, Rich Redman, Bruce R. Cordell, based on original material by E. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson
Creature Collection Copyright 2000, Clark Peterson
Relics & Rituals Copyright 2001, Clark Peterson
Creature Collection 2: Dark Menagerie Copyright 2001, White Wolf Publishing, Inc.
Mithril: City of the Golem Copyright 2001, White Wolf Publishing, Inc.
Hollowfaust: City of Necromancers Copyright 2001, White Wolf Publishing, Inc.
The Wise and the Wicked Copyright 2001, White Wolf Publishing, Inc.
The Divine and the Defeated Copyright 2001, White Wolf Publishing, Inc.
Burok Torn: City Under Siege Copyright 2002, White Wolf Publishing, Inc.
Vigil Watch: Warrens of the Ratmen Copyright 2002, White Wolf Publishing, Inc.
Secrets and Societies Copyright 2002, White Wolf Publishing, Inc.
Scarred Lands Campaign Setting: Ghelspad Copyright 2002, White Wolf Publishing, Inc.
Relics & Rituals 2: Lost Lore Copyright 2002, White Wolf Publishing, Inc.
If Thoughts Could Kill Copyright 2002 Bruce R. Cordell. All Rights Reserved
Open Game Content from Encyclopaedia Divine: Shamans copyright 2002, Mongoose Publishing
Bow & Blade: A Guidebook to Wood Elves, Copyright 2003, Green Ronin Publishing; Authors Jesse Decker and Chris Thomasson
The Shaman’s Handbook, Copyright 2002, Green Ronin Publishing; Author Steve Kenson
The Witch’s Handbook, Copyright 2002, Green Ronin Publishing; Author Steve Kenson
Cooshees from the Tome of Horrors, Copyright 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax
The Complete Guide to Treants by Joe Crow, Copyright 2002 Joseph Goodman DBA Goodman Games (contact goodmangames@mindspring.com, or see www.goodman-games.com)
The Village of Briarton copyright 2003 by Gold Rush Games; Authors Patrick
Sweeney, Christina Stiles; Editing & Additional material by Spike Y Jones
Open Game Content from The Penumbra Bestiary Copyright 2003, Trident Inc. d/b/a Atlas Games; editor Michelle A. Brown Nephew
Uncommon Character Copyright 2003, Trident Inc., d/b/a Atlas Games
Waysides: Book of Taverns Copyright 2003, Eden Studios, Inc.
Testament: Roleplaying in the Biblical Era, Copyright 2003, Green Ronin Publishing; Author Scott Bennie
Monte Cook’s Arcana Unearthed Copyright 2003 Monte J. Cook. All rights reserved.
Occult Lore Copyright 2002, Trident Inc. d/b/a Atlas Games.
Nyambe: African Adventures Copyright 2002, Trident Inc. d/b/a Atlas Games; author Christopher W. Dolunt.
Creature Collection, ©2001 Scott Greene, http://www.enworld.org/cc
The Book of the Righteous, Copyright 2002, Aaron Loeb
Into The Green, Copyright 2003, Bastion Press, Inc.
Corwyl: Village of the Wood Elves Copyright 2004, Green Ronin Publishing; Authors Christina Stiles and Patrick Sweeney

 

[philreed]

For the most part, OGC is used in small chunks. A spell from this book, a feat from that book, etc. I think the biggest reuse is the Greater Treant from Goodman Games' Complete Guide to Treants.

That's pretty much exactly what I do. A feat here, a spell there, sometimes a name that's been made OGC -- I figure that for someone who may own one or two of the sources used in one of my PDFs I've given them a product that ties into material they're likely already using.

 

[HellHound]

I think improper section 15s make it almost impossible to use someone elses open content, without contacting the company to get the proper section. This is a huge problem, almost no one does section 15 properly. Usually they only leave out the relevent SRD or their own product, but if they get that wrong, how can you be sure they got the rest right?

To make matters worse, there are companies with incorrect section 15s who flat out state that they will NOT be revising the section 15 in question until the product goes to reprint (in other words: never).

 

[Sir Elton]

To make matters worse, there are companies with incorrect section 15s who flat out state that they will NOT be revising the section 15 in question until the product goes to reprint (in other words: never).

That. is. not. cool. The OGL was set up to protect everyone involved, not to be abused.