d20 bubble bust?- High Prices, too many books

[Bards R Us]

As I understood it (and someone correct me if I'm wrong, please) WotC market research showed that the players weren't the ones buying the books. The lion's share of books are sold to the DMs. If so, then the players' delight is not what's driving the change.

One product does not a trend make. If Complete Divine is filled with overpowered stuff, it doesn't mean that WotC has abandoned a design philosophy.

True, although I would guess that it is not as skewed nowadays as it was in the past IMHO. Alot of D20 books that I've bought are certainly useful to me as someone who is exclusively a player.

 

[buzz]

The lion's share of books are sold to the DMs. If so, then the players' delight is not what's driving the change.

Purely anecdotal evidence, but in my three groups, everybody pretty much buys everything. This may be more true in the d20 era, as WotC (and most other companies) isn't just pumping out adventures and campaign settings a la TSR, but books full of crunch.

And heck, how many gamers are just players? Everybody DMs at some point.

 

[Umbran]

It's not just one product. Complete Warrior was also a trend upward in power.

I have to agree with Psion. In looking at CW I just don't see that trend. I see things as Psion does - more correctins and compensatiosn back toward a reasonable midline. Overall, I think CW is a more balanced book than the similar WotC material from 3e. Perhaps you place emphasis on things differently than I do.

 

[Belen]

I have to agree with Psion. In looking at CW I just don't see that trend. I see things as Psion does - more correctins and compensatiosn back toward a reasonable midline. Overall, I think CW is a more balanced book than the similar WotC material from 3e. Perhaps you place emphasis on things differently than I do.

If you do not mind, please quote all of my comments as you are arguing exactly what I said! Full quote below:

It's not just one product. Complete Warrior was also a trend upward in power. The only difference is that fighter classes needed the boost to level the playing field, while casters did not need more sickening power.

I actually dread the Complete Arcane.

So I was referring to the cheese that is Complete Divine, which seems to really enhance Divine casters, while offering no detriments for the benefits, such as feats that use "turning" power.....

 

[JoeGKushner]

This is a great thread. Lots of individuals, both lovers of the system and those who work in the field, making lots of interesting replies.

For my group, we overall have bought less. We tend to buy in spurts now. Wait for a few books to come out and then go and buy them as opposed to picking up lots of books. Part of the problem with this is that prices have gone up as the format has evolved to what players want. For example, one of my players bought the SSS Advanced book, but couldn't afford anything else. In the past, he might've bought two $14.95 or $19.95 books or three $9.95 or $12.95 books. He's enjoying the Advanced book but wouldn't mind picking up Conan, but he's flat out told me he isn't spending $50 for it.

On another route, a lot of them have been extremely disappointed in 3rd party 3.5 updates. The Complete Book of Eldritch Might, and Hallowed Might have both gotten big thumbs down from those who owned them previously. Too much material not changed, and the lack of change in the art and layout itself was a big mash. Same problem some have had with Mongoose's new Arcane book. Too much reused art and not enough actual updating despite a new school being there.

For what my group would consider a good 3.5 update, the Complete Warrior and Book of Hell both get thumbs up from my players as it does a lot more than just give the 3.5 touch to the older books including new art and sections in them.

I also agree that there was a certain amount of enthusism when 3.0 first hit. At more books come out, the realization that those books may never get used, especially when the engine has been tweaked, has cooled a lot of buying habbits. This is especially tough on backlist products that came out when 3.5 did that still used the 3.0 tools like Atlas' huge Bestiary. I've got friends that state, "When they come out with an online update, I'll buy it." Same for Tome of Horrors I"

The 3.5 updates are a rock and a hard place for many of my friends who either want a 3.5 book, or want the updates to be available for the 3.0 book online before they buy.

 

[Vigilance]

On another route, a lot of them have been extremely disappointed in 3rd party 3.5 updates.

I work for a company that never did a fantasy product for 3E so we didn't have to wrestle with this issue.

However, I have to say that I don't think 3rd party companies "owe" people extensive 3.5 updates, especially considering the tight margins companies like ours run on as it is.

3.5 wasn't the idea of a bunch of 3rd party candidates, and the fact that companies are struggling with profitability issues, where every book has to contribute to a company's bottom line is why you are seeing the really good updates (including the WOTC ones) being in the form of products more expensive than the original book they are "updating".

Again Im a bit of an outsider on this issue since I mostly write modern books, but that's my .02

Chuck

 

[JoeGKushner]

I agree 100% that 3rd party companies don't owe consumers anything. This includes errata. Look at some of the books by any company including WoTC) that still don't have any errata. This is true even with an official 3.5 update. On the other hand, consumers don't owe a companies anything either.

Part of a consumer's expectations however, may be the companies own fault. Who remembers when web updates and add ons flowed freely and often? I know I can't be the only one who remembers who modules and monstrous additions to great core books. Now it's not quite so often. More or less previews in some cases. This is worse when the company promotes a book as having heavy web support to come down the line. I enjoy a lot of MEG's products but they've taken some flak for the errors in The Deep and the lack of promised updates.

(BTW, Blood & Fists is pretty sweet. I'm still debating using it or the GR Martial Arts book or using both as equal but seperate options. Expect a review soon)

 

[Arnwyn]

And heck, how many gamers are just players?

My entire group except me. They refuse to DM because "it's too much work".

 

[Monte At Home]

On another route, a lot of them have been extremely disappointed in 3rd party 3.5 updates. The Complete Book of Eldritch Might, and Hallowed Might have both gotten big thumbs down from those who owned them previously. Too much material not changed, and the lack of change in the art and layout itself was a big mash. Same problem some have had with Mongoose's new Arcane book. Too much reused art and not enough actual updating despite a new school being there.

At the risk of seeming defensive, I'm going to have to pop in and say that I find this criticism both inaccurate and unfair. While I can only speak authoritatively for the first two books, I can tell you that you're criticizing them for not being something they were never meant to be. Both CBoEM and the new version of Hallowed Might were planned before 3.5 was announced. CBoEM was meant to be simply a collection of the 3 Eldritch Might books because one was out of print and one was very close to being out, and, frankly, because so many people were asking for them to be collected in one volume. We decided, since it was coming out after 3.5, we'd make a few changes to make it usable with 3.5 (not that I actually think 3.0 material isn't useful with 3.5, but that's a different topic), and as long as we're making a few changes, throw in an appendix to convert the stuff to AU. As for Hallowed Might, it was originally scheduled for a simple reprint, because it was also out of print. We figured, why not go the extra step and make the few changes necessary to make it 3.5 compatible (and throw in an appendix to convert the stuff to AU)?

So to criticize them for not having enough new material or new art and layouts is, as I said, unfair. In our view, we made more changes that we'd originally intended in the first place--ironically, we believed that we were taking that extra step to make the books more usable for new customers. (And plenty of them have appreciated it, from what I hear.) Neither product was aimed at people who'd bought the material before. In fact, I've said publicly that if you already had the material you shouldn't buy the CBoEM. That's even more true of BoHM.

 

[Vigilance]

I agree 100% that 3rd party companies don't owe consumers anything. This includes errata. Look at some of the books by any company including WoTC) that still don't have any errata. This is true even with an official 3.5 update. On the other hand, consumers don't owe a companies anything either.

Agreed.

And the problem is companies are in something of a lose/lose situation here. 3.5 is technically close enough to 3E to meet Wizards' pledge of the game being just an update that did not require you to throw out all of your 3rd edition books and start over.

However, this attitude isnt expressed by a sizable percentage of the market.

So its a lose/lose. You dont want to alienate customers, so if those customers are unwilling to pay for the updates (often at a price equal to what they payed for the book in the first place) then companies are kind of screwed, because every book has to contribute to the bottom line.

RPGObjects is a pretty tight ship (in my not-so humble opinion) but red ink on a single book in this business tends to snowball.

Part of a consumer's expectations however, may be the companies own fault. Who remembers when web updates and add ons flowed freely and often? I know I can't be the only one who remembers who modules and monstrous additions to great core books. Now it's not quite so often. More or less previews in some cases. This is worse when the company promotes a book as having heavy web support to come down the line. I enjoy a lot of MEG's products but they've taken some flak for the errors in The Deep and the lack of promised updates.

Agreed. And in cases where expectations fail to meet reality because the company SET those expectations, I am all for holding corporate feet to the fire.

But that isn't the case here. 3.5 was the not the brainchild of a bunch of 3rd party companies who then found themselves unable to meet promises to update product.

(BTW, Blood & Fists is pretty sweet. I'm still debating using it or the GR Martial Arts book or using both as equal but seperate options. Expect a review soon)

That warms my heart man. Thanks a lot


Chuck