d20 bubble bust?- High Prices, too many books

[The Sigil]

I'm quoting the because I know there are publishers reading this thread and I want to make sure they see it.

I would LOVE to see this sort of "talent tree" concept brought to D&D in place of Yet Another PrC. I have tons of d20 books, and have yet to find a PrC I was particularly interested in using. OTOH, when I read the preview for Goodman Games Power Gamer's 3.5 Warrior Strategy Guide, which esstially dissects existing rules (the preview focused on, yes, feat chains), I ordered a copy immediately.

If some company were to compile a fat collection of good, balanced feats (as opposed to any and all feats, a la AEG and Mongoose), and pointed out useful chains of them for creating different archetypes, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

I have always been intrigued by talent trees, and may work at it at some point... however, the one thing that bothers me about using Feats is simply this... Feats come so infrequently that effective Feat chains are hard to build and harder to attain. Think about it... the average 20th level character has 7 Feats. If you put a 5-Feat chain together, he can't even achieve it until 12th level.

*shameless plug*
This is why I'm trying to put the finishing touches on "Buy the Numbers" this week (I have only the "spellcasting" section left to write) - a system that allows you to buy Feats or skills with XP rather than a "class level." That way, getting Feat Chains becomes more attainable... or gaining more spell slots and thus spell use than that typically given to wizards might be your cup of tea... the thing that I have found limiting about the d20 system at the end of the day is the "class & level" thing which sometimes "forces" me to pick up abilities or whatever that I don't want or don't need. The "a la carte" of BtN is working a lot better for me, allowing me to get what I want and avoid what I don't (frex while I like familiars, I know others do not, and might want something "instead" without "weakening" their character).

Once I work through my current spate of stuff - especially getting a product out there that allows easier pickup of lots of Feats and thus enables easier acquisition of Feat Chains, this is definitely something I'll look at.

--The Sigil

 

[DaveMage]

Regarding conversions to 3.5, they can be very time-consuming - especially for products that have monsters or NPCs. I wouldn't expect any publisher to go through that unless they are re-releasing the book (and could thus see some profit from it).

As a DM, running a 3.0 product in 3.5 is pretty easy to do on the fly, but when you do an actual print conversion, and have to redo 20 levels of skill points because some skills are no longer there, it takes quite a bit of time. I attempted to convert Oathbound to 3.5 and those 20th level characters in there literally took hours (each) to do.

I'm sure some are more skilled at it than I am, but to do it right and make sure that all the bonuses and synergies are accounted for, it takes time.

So, as it relates to this thread, if companies are planning on doing a reprint anyway, I can see converting a product to 3.5, but otherwise, I would think it's better for them to be working on new products. Or take a page from WotC, Necromancer games, and others, and devote forum space to errata. Let the fans help you out.

 

[buzz]

Feats come so infrequently that effective Feat chains are hard to build and harder to attain. Think about it... the average 20th level character has 7 Feats. If you put a 5-Feat chain together, he can't even achieve it until 12th level.

Unless you're a fighter (11 bonus feats) or a wizard (4 bonus feats), or are human (1 bonus feat at 1st level). And who says a feat chain needs to have five feats? Why not three?

I dunno. There's room to do some cool stuff with this concept.

 

[Vigilance]

If you look at some of the traditional feat chains (Im thinking Mounted Combat/Ride-by Attack/Spirited Chargeor the 2-weapon fighting trees) there seems to be a precendent to allowing the really badass bennies to kick in around the third feat in the chain.

Three feats is still a serious investment, but that's why you make the benefits good

When you get to five feats part of me asks why not just make it a class?

Chuck

 

[The Sigil]

Unless you're a fighter (11 bonus feats) or a wizard (4 bonus feats), or are human (1 bonus feat at 1st level). And who says a feat chain needs to have five feats? Why not three?

I dunno. There's room to do some cool stuff with this concept.

Hmm... Whirlwind Attack requires Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack - a 4-feat Chain.

Great Cleave requires Power Attack and Cleave - a 3-Feat Chain.

Most of the chains seem to be 3- or 4-Feat chains. That means a particular character can only have one, maybe two (unless a fighter) in his career.

That worries me. I like the concept, I just think we need to have more Feats available to folks so that they can explore these chains.

--The Sigil

 

[Staffan]

Hmm... Whirlwind Attack requires Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack - a 4-feat Chain.

Great Cleave requires Power Attack and Cleave - a 3-Feat Chain.

Most of the chains seem to be 3- or 4-Feat chains. That means a particular character can only have one, maybe two (unless a fighter) in his career.

That worries me. I like the concept, I just think we need to have more Feats available to folks so that they can explore these chains.

Personally, I think one schtick (3-4 feats) plus some outside stuff (whatever feats remain) is pretty OK for someone who gets another schtick as part of his base class. Classes without schticks often get bonus feats, like the fighter, so they're able to get more fun feat-based schticks.

Though it would be cool if there were some really long and impressive feat chains that gave the specialist fighter something to do. Something like a fighting style encompassing 8-9 feats, some of which have pretty high BAB requirements. Such a feat chain would basically be the sole province of the fighter, since only they have the feats available to do it (a psychic warrior could do pretty well too).

 

[Napftor]

At the risk of seeming defensive, I'm going to have to pop in and say that I find this criticism both inaccurate and unfair. While I can only speak authoritatively for the first two books, I can tell you that you're criticizing them for not being something they were never meant to be. Both CBoEM and the new version of Hallowed Might were planned before 3.5 was announced. CBoEM was meant to be simply a collection of the 3 Eldritch Might books because one was out of print and one was very close to being out, and, frankly, because so many people were asking for them to be collected in one volume. We decided, since it was coming out after 3.5, we'd make a few changes to make it usable with 3.5 (not that I actually think 3.0 material isn't useful with 3.5, but that's a different topic), and as long as we're making a few changes, throw in an appendix to convert the stuff to AU. As for Hallowed Might, it was originally scheduled for a simple reprint, because it was also out of print. We figured, why not go the extra step and make the few changes necessary to make it 3.5 compatible (and throw in an appendix to convert the stuff to AU)?

So to criticize them for not having enough new material or new art and layouts is, as I said, unfair. In our view, we made more changes that we'd originally intended in the first place--ironically, we believed that we were taking that extra step to make the books more usable for new customers. (And plenty of them have appreciated it, from what I hear.) Neither product was aimed at people who'd bought the material before. In fact, I've said publicly that if you already had the material you shouldn't buy the CBoEM. That's even more true of BoHM.

To be fair, I think Joe was only throwing out the opinions of him and his group, not making generalizations about all consumers. It's understandable that one group thought the updates weren't up to par. I will disagree with his reasons concerning art and layout though. I mean, why do these constitute a poor update if the rules are what matter? But then we're getting into a whole other can of worms about "art books" vs. "rule books" selling better.

I can't speak to the BoHM revision, but I thought the BoEM revision was great. First, I personally love hardcovers so that is a big plus. And while I already owned the 3.0 versions, I needed to buy the 3.5 revision for two simple reasons--convenience and "updated" material. As a writer, I knew I would be using BoEM material for a current project and the revision not only made everything conveniently available in one book but it also brought it over to the newest version of the rules. As you said, Monte, there isn't terribly much difference between 3.0 and 3.5 BoEM material, but the consumers often disagree, the regular posts about perceived incompatibility being evidence of that. By having the revised BoEM in the section 15 instead of the original volumes, it may just generate a few more sales (assumung that consumers even look at the section 15--a whole other discussion).

As to the d20 glut, I'll just sit and watch the fascinating discussions go by. I just wanted to interject that one man's perceived poor revision is another man's shiny boon.

 

[Setanta]

I, too, would love to see producers run with the feat chain concept. I think Phil Reed would be perfect for this- Seven melee feat chains $1.10, Six feat chains for archers $1.10, 8 feat chains for divine casters $1.90, etc. I'd buy them all.

So I was referring to the cheese that is Complete Divine, which seems to really enhance Divine casters, while offering no detriments for the benefits, such as feats that use "turning" power.....

I like what WotC has done in complete divine with more uses for the channeling of positive energy through feats. I'm not saying they're all balanced, but I don't know why there needs to be a downside- a feat is being used to give the character more options/power. That's the whole point of feats, and I've liked this concept of feats since it debuted way back in DotF or whatever.

 

[philreed]

I, too, would love to see producers run with the feat chain concept. I think Phil Reed would be perfect for this- Seven melee feat chains $1.10, Six feat chains for archers $1.10, 8 feat chains for divine casters $1.90, etc. I'd buy them all.

Wow, thank you for the encouragement!

I was actually starting to formulate a way to build something that could work. Seeing this post makes me want to write down the idea (a problem I usually have is so many ideas that I start losing them before I can act on them). I have to say that it isn't exactly a feat tree but does take the basic idea and adapt it to something new.

 

[Psion]

When you get to five feats part of me asks why not just make it a class?

That's probably a pretty good dividing line.

From my point of view, I am seeing this one from the other side of the fence. I'm seeing a bit of core class glut. One of the biggest determinants for me on whether a core class deserves to exist is whether you can easily realize the basic concept of the class easily with multiclassing or feat chains. I see a lot of classes that are only a few feats away.