d20 bubble bust?- High Prices, too many books

woodelf said:
You seem to be a bit contradictory here. Why did you have to "retire" half your collection? Because you don't consider D&D3E-compatible books sufficiently compatible with D&D3.5E. Yet you're complaining when a company updates their books to be D&D3.5E-compatible. If they'd continued the Quintessential series as 3E-compatible after 3.5E came out, you'd be complaining that they're publishing books you can't use. If you consider 3E and 3.5E incompatible, then you can't really complain at people updating books designed with the former in mind so that they work with the latter. And if you don't consider them incompatible, then why'd you "have to" retire all those 3E-compatible books?

Uh no. You can complain if you are forced to buy the same material twice. And I stopped by the quint books well before 3.5 because they were seriously overpowered with little thought actually given to balance, although after Complete Divine, it seems that WOTC has decided balance does not sell books either.
 

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BelenUmeria said:
Uh no. You can complain if you are forced to buy the same material twice. And I stopped by the quint books well before 3.5 because they were seriously overpowered with little thought actually given to balance, although after Complete Divine, it seems that WOTC has decided balance does not sell books either.

Balance rarely sells products. Players delight in nothing more than finding some uber feat, spell, or prestige class that they can convince their DM to allow in the game. For many, many years, game supplements that advance the power of player characters have been quite popular -- so popular, in fact, that some company product lines are based on the idea of escalating power.

This isn't good or bad. It's just the way things are. Everyone has their own way of playing and the market attempts to support as many different types of play as possible.
 

Pramas said:
Well, the Advanced Player's Manual is big enough that even 48 pages is less than 25%, and it doesn't use any other OGC. And really, when you look at the big picture, it shouldn't be a problem. The book has a potential audience of at least 100,00 people and Malhavoc has only sold a few thousand copies of Cry Havoc so odds should be in our favor. However, I often see people say things like "I only buy d20 from GR and Malhavoc", so I suspect we are sharing a lot of consumers.

I would have to say that this is true. I did buy Cry Havoc and I plan on buying the advanced books, although I will not complain about re-used material on this one. I have yet to actually use the Cry Havoc material, which I bought in PDF format.

I see no reason why I would ever switch my buying habits away from Green Ronin, Malhavoc or Fantasy Flight these days, although I did try Grim Tales in direct response to this thread.

In fact, I have yet to use 80% of the books that I have bought. I really have morte material than I will ever use in the d20 world and I tend to design what I do use, myself. No clue why I keep buying books!

Source books: I may be wrong, but I think people may be getting burned out on source books. I know that I am looking for things that are "different" these days. If that makes any sense.

Dave
 

philreed said:
Balance rarely sells products. Players delight in nothing more than finding some uber feat, spell, or prestige class that they can convince their DM to allow in the game. For many, many years, game supplements that advance the power of player characters have been quite popular -- so popular, in fact, that some company product lines are based on the idea of escalating power.

This isn't good or bad. It's just the way things are. Everyone has their own way of playing and the market attempts to support as many different types of play as possible.

See...my players and I were discussing this concept this weekend. There is a way to make books without upping the power scales that will still sell to players.

EVERY player in the game agrees that feat chains would be far superior to prestige classes, and I am surprised that no designers have really gone after this concept. Just because people latched on to PrCs does not mean that the game needs them, whereas, the game does need feats.

I think the most useful game supplment for a player would be a book that listed chains such as the whirlwind chain etc. Show how feats can be used to accomplish stereotypes rather than making some cheesy PrC. And bring those chains to a logical conclusion (ie high level!)

It's sad that no publisher has attempted to break this mold.

(As a side note, we also discussed that the fighter should be given special abilities rather than be a feat monkey and every class should probably have more feats)

In any event, I would buy from a publisher with the balls to drop PrCs and buck the trend.
 

BelenUmeria said:
I think the most useful game supplment for a player would be a book that listed chains such as the whirlwind chain etc. Show how feats can be used to accomplish stereotypes rather than making some cheesy PrC. And bring those chains to a logical conclusion (ie high level!)
I'm quoting the because I know there are publishers reading this thread and I want to make sure they see it.

I would LOVE to see this sort of "talent tree" concept brought to D&D in place of Yet Another PrC. I have tons of d20 books, and have yet to find a PrC I was particularly interested in using. OTOH, when I read the preview for Goodman Games Power Gamer's 3.5 Warrior Strategy Guide, which esstially dissects existing rules (the preview focused on, yes, feat chains), I ordered a copy immediately.

If some company were to compile a fat collection of good, balanced feats (as opposed to any and all feats, a la AEG and Mongoose), and pointed out useful chains of them for creating different archetypes, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
 

philreed said:
Balance rarely sells products. Players delight in nothing more than finding some uber feat, spell, or prestige class that they can convince their DM to allow in the game.

As I understood it (and someone correct me if I'm wrong, please) WotC market research showed that the players weren't the ones buying the books. The lion's share of books are sold to the DMs. If so, then the players' delight is not what's driving the change.

One product does not a trend make. If Complete Divine is filled with overpowered stuff, it doesn't mean that WotC has abandoned a design philosophy.
 
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Umbran said:
As I understood it (and someone correct me if I'm wrong, please) WotC market research showed that the players weren't the ones buying the boks. The lion's share of books are sold to the DMs. If so, then the players' delight is not what's driving the change.

Well, what else do GMs have to buy? We certainly do not get a lot of adventures. I think more players buy books than they used too, but yes, it is still the GMs, or avid gamers, who buy the most books, usually so that players can use them as well.

Umbran said:
One product does not a trend make. If Complete Divine is filled with overpowered stuff, it doesn't mean that WotC has abandoned a design philosophy.

It's not just one product. Complete Warrior was also a trend upward in power. The only difference is that fighter classes needed the boost to level the playing field, while casters did not need more sickening power.

I actually dread the Complete Arcane.
 

I'm not seeing this massive upward trend in power in the complete series. Indeed, in CD and CW, I've seen things corrected (Hospitaler) or even overcompensated for in their nerfing (power critical.)

Now of course there are exceptions to this, some of which I consider poorly considered, but I think if you think there is an intentional RIFTs-like "power escalation" design philosophy implicit here, you are sorely mistaken.
 

Hi,

I'm a little late wading into this thread but it has been a very interesting read. I don't actually work in the industry but following the actual business of it is almost a hobby of mine. I also have a number of friends in the industry (Robin Laws, Steve Trustrum and all the guys at Fiery Dragon) so I do get to see behind the scenes a little more than most.

I any case I wanted to counterpoint the statement that the small press guys are the ones producing all the junk. A statement that has already been championed but I wanted to add a case in point.

I picked up D20 Modern shortly after it came out because I'd heard (here I think) that S&SS were going to do Gamma World D20. Well a year after I had originally expected it to be released I finally picked it up. To say that I was dissapointed would be an understatement. While the book has some great ideas in it none of them seemed complete or thought through very well. I started reading the Gammaworld boards at S&SS and discovered that I was the only one giving the new edition a cold review. What I did pick up was that everyone was talking about something called Darwin's World. So I looked it up.

What I found was some really interesting stuff and that a HC 2nd. Edition was due. SO down to my FLGS (the Hairy Tarantula in Toronto, great store) I went and started harassing them to get me a copy. The release date came and went with out it arriving. For three months after the fact I went in every week and asked if they had it in yet. Everytime I was told no but they'd keep on their distributor about it (and these guys do that, they'll go direct to the publisher if they need to). Finally a couple of weeks ago they got 2 copies in. Needless to say one them is now mine.

This book (which is HUGE if you haven't seen it) had EVERYTHING that Gammaworld D20 had been missing. I'm still poring through it. And the funny thing is that my Gammaworld D20 game that I was going to get Darwin's World to supplement has become my Darwin's World game which Gamma World D20 is going to supplement.

So the moral of this short story turned long is that it's not just the small guys producing junk.

Jack
 

Pramas said:
I often see people say things like "I only buy d20 from GR and Malhavoc"

This is not unlike someone saying "I only read short stories that appear in the New Yorker or in a Year's Best collection." It's phase 3 thinking: recognizing the value of editorial selection.

In phase 1, readers are so glad to see new faces that they'll try anything once. In phase 2, the newly emerging professional authors establish names for themselves, and readers start looking out for products with those names on them. And in phase 3, those names coalesce into organizations: GR and Malhavoc aren't just publishing work by themselves/their house developers, but acting as a selection mechanism for top quality work by the best in the field.

This process is good for everyone. The established reputations of the publishers and the authors are magnified by their association with one another. A new star in the field doesn't have to go through the Phase 2 process of rising from the primordial ooze; being published by GR (i.e., passing a quality selection process) automatically marks them as someone to watch. Customers with a limited budget or limited time to research their purchases can be sure that anything they buy from a top publisher will be good, and (unlike the pre-Phase 1 bad old days) there's nothing stopping them from exploring the wide range of products that aren't from a "name" publisher.

Reputation is the engine that drives Phase 3, and the analogy to the Year's Best anthologies should indicate that full entry into Phase 3 is vital to the continued growth and success of the field as a whole.

Unfortunately, I believe that we'll never achieve a mature Phase 3 if publishers use currently-accepted methods of attributing their source material, because of the potential harm to reputations.

I'll use Chris's post about Corwyl as an example, but this isn't meant in any way to slam him; on the contrary, I salute his use of OGC (and his participation in this discussion), and am just trying to point out some emergent problems for the field as a whole.

Let's say that Behemoth3 announces the forthcoming release of the Book of Re-Used Food. We let it be known that the BoRF contains Open Game Content that's reprinted from books by the top names in the field. When asked to elaborate further, we say "Here's the BoRF Section 15 declaration." It looks just like the one Chris posted for Corwyl, except for the addition of the "Book of Re-Used Food copyright 2004 Behemoth3, author B. MacGougal."

When the BoRF hits shelves, two things become obvious:
1) Re-used food is crap. 99% of the book is unbalanced, uninspired, unappealing OGC. It's so bad that anyone who bought it is going to be forever turned off buying anything else they associate with the BoRF.
2) Only one small chunk of the BoRF OGC has actually appeared elsewhere: a single spell taken from Corwyl. The 99% that sucks is all original.

Releasing such a terrible product is tremendously damaging to Behemoth3's reputation. It's almost as damaging to the reputation of everyone listed in its Section 15 declaration, even though most of them had no actual connection to the content of the new work (in fact, some of them even had nothing to do with Corwyl), and those who did were responsible for the one good thing about the BoRF.

This situation arises directly from the inaccurate source attribution set up by the prevalent interpretation of the OGL v1.0a. In every other culture of publication, being re-published in a crappy work isn't a blow to your reputation because your contribution is accurately cited. When your name appears in connection with the part of the work you're specifically responsible for, you can stand out as the gem in a sea of crap instead of being submerged in it and tarnished by association.

Here are some things you could do to help improve the situation, Chris. (Again, I don't mean to pick on you, except insofar as these steps would be much more meaningful if taken by someone with your standing in the community):

1) Release a "References" document for Corwyl and other works that re-use OGC, making it clear which pieces of the text come from which sources
2) Encourage other publishers to do the same
3) Promote an interpretation of the OGL Section 15 that requires listing only those sources which contributed content that is actually being used in the new work.

If the Section 15 from Corwyl doesn't repeat the System Reference Document 31 times because it appeared (or should have) in each of the 31 prior sources, you've already moved away from a strict exactly-reproduce-all-prior-Section-15-declarations interpretation. Obviously, no one does that because it doesn't make sense. Does listing prior works that have no actual connection to the current work make any more sense?

The creation of an accepted community system for accurate citation of which OGC comes from which sources could address this problem, as well as protecting reputations from being tarnished when work is re-used in a Book of Crap.
 
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