d20 bubble bust?- High Prices, too many books

[mmadsen]

Inflation

Whenever people start to discuss how prices have gone up since the good ol' days, I like to cite inflation and point out that what cost $1 in 1980 would cost over $2 in 2000.

Certainly inflation has been low for the last decade or so, but prices have gone up significantly since many of us bought our first Players Handbook decades ago. And today's books are thick, full-color hardbacks.

 

[EricNoah]

And the other thing folks bring up in defense of RPG prices is value -- my DM just finished up almost TWO YEARS of using one module (Banewarrens) -- that was, what, $15 that was very well spent.

 

[Rl'Halsinor]

A lot of good responses here. I remember when the only viable options for roleplaying was TSR and Judges Guild with the latter remembered fondly, i.e. City State of the Invincible Overlord, Tegel Manor, but whose artwork sometimes reminded one of the combined creativity of a 1st grade art class. Now after many years of P&P absence I have come back to be wowed by the creativity that is "outthere." The open d20 gaming license, IMO, is truly a blessing. However, it is a double-edged sword. As someone has already pointed out there are ebbs and flow to the RPG world. Not only is there a so-called "glut" that will naturally separate the strong from the weak, but the buying community, though very viable, is still limited in scope and funds. There are a number of Mauals and other items I would love to buy, but other responsibilities prevent me from purchasing them, plus some are just too expensive for me. So it does come down to money more often than not.

 

[RangerWickett]

From where I'm sitting the economy is doing great.

What was the price of Wild Spellcraft during that first month vs the price of EoM revised now?

Anyway, my point is that when you bring e-publications into the mix, you change the discussion significantly.

Wild Spellcraft debuted at $7 for 65 pages. EOM-R debuted at $9 for 100 pages.

Where I sit in Atlanta, I have friends who graduated a year ago with Biology and Business degrees who are working at Toys R Us and local libraries.

Why do you say that e-publications change the discussion? They are books too. Admittedly shelf space isn't as important, but hundreds of thousands of gamers go to game stores. Maybe a tenth of that or less shop for pdf books online, and the ones that do are buying less. Even the top name in pdf publishing, Malhavoc, is selling less (though that could just be influenced by the fact that people expect to get the print versions when they come out).

 

[Belen]

Profile is also an issue. For instance, I enjoy the Necromancer Games products that I have bought, but no one in the area stocks them and I have been unable to get them from Amazon. Personally, I do not want to use Paypal in order to buy a product or be forced to go through a site such as WW online because I cannot trust them as much as Amazon on security issues.

Heck, even RPGnow will be missing a lot of products, which totally blows me away.

And price is a huge factor. It's nice to say that we get a lot of use out of products, Eric, but how many adventures are written these days? I would say that I get little value out of most of my books. They sit on the shelf, waiting for me to use them.

I got really burned on the 3.5 updates. Half of my collection had to be retired to the place I keep my 2e books. And I know that Mongoose has really alienated me by bringing out the Quint updates. Heck, they did not even have books for all the base classes before they updated the Quint fighter, and not we have Quint II, so on and so forth.

This is one reason I love Fantasy Flight. We do not have multiple versions of the path books, instead, they keep coming out with original material.

I am very worried that Green Ronin will "update" the Book of the Righteous rather than just posting Holy Warrior updates....<sigh>.

Value is overrated. For every book that provided hours of use, I have three that sit in the closet that have been used once or twice.

 

[Belen]

Wild Spellcraft debuted at $7 for 65 pages. EOM-R debuted at $9 for 100 pages.

Where I sit in Atlanta, I have friends who graduated a year ago with Biology and Business degrees who are working at Toys R Us and local libraries.

Why do you say that e-publications change the discussion? They are books too. Admittedly shelf space isn't as important, but hundreds of thousands of gamers go to game stores. Maybe a tenth of that or less shop for pdf books online, and the ones that do are buying less. Even the top name in pdf publishing, Malhavoc, is selling less (though that could just be influenced by the fact that people expect to get the print versions when they come out).

I feel your pain. My wife just graduated with a Masters in Library Science in December with 26k in loans and cannot find any library positions. She had temp work for 5 months to get a job that requires a BA!

PDF books main problem is lack of advertising. Heck, I'll bet your sales would go up if you offered to print and bind the book and then ship to people. I would pay the extra in that case.

Also, ever thought of creating an EnWorld membership that included PDF products, or create a subscriber base for EnWorld products? For instance, I would pay EnWorld 50/ year if I also got all the PDF books for free. This would allow you to claim higher sales numbers/ or subscription, gain a higher profile for your products, and make a heck of a lot more money.

For example, 1000 people subscribe/ join EnWorld at the PDF included rate. That is a net of 15k for PDF publications.

Currently, you have maybe 3 publications a year with an average buyer of 500/ product and 9 dollars which leads to 13.5k in sales.

You'd get a LOT more money with the subscriber/ membership package than selling the old way. For example, 30k with 2000 members etc.

I work for a publication where 80 of our base subscription comes from membership to a scientific society. EnWorld could do the same!!!

I would be willing to talk to Morrus and crew about this as I think that is exactly the type of thing the RPG world needs. An EnWorld society could be a powerhouse in the RPG world!!!!!!

 

[Belen]

And you could still sell the books on top of having them come as part of membership! There will always be unsubscribers etc.

Ah....the possibilities are endless!

 

[BryonD]

Wild Spellcraft debuted at $7 for 65 pages. EOM-R debuted at $9 for 100 pages.

Wow, was WS really that high? I know I started balking when the prices started moving over $5. And I know I bought a lot for less than $6. I've bought maybe like 2 things ever at $9+.

Where I sit in Atlanta, I have friends who graduated a year ago with Biology and Business degrees who are working at Toys R Us and local libraries.

I am 3 miles down the road from you, in Decatur.

Try graduating in Sept 1992, like I did, when the economy really was in recession. Walking out of college has never been a magic wand for a big job. I know people who have given up finding quality employees, so I guess it is just a matter of perspective. Without getting into politics, the economic numbers are good. (and, no, I won't respond to challenges of this) Which is all beside the point. My on topic point is that I think that the decline from the super highs in the D20 market were long predicted because they were completely predictable. Thus, I do not see any basis in claiming now that the larger economy is responsible for something that "everybody" knew was coming regardless of what the economy did.

Why do you say that e-publications change the discussion? They are books too. Admittedly shelf space isn't as important, but hundreds of thousands of gamers go to game stores. Maybe a tenth of that or less shop for pdf books online, and the ones that do are buying less. Even the top name in pdf publishing, Malhavoc, is selling less (though that could just be influenced by the fact that people expect to get the print versions when they come out).

Because it is still an emerging market and the expectations are not established. My perspective is that the prices of PDFs have gone up significantly over the past two or so years. As such, I quit buying them. This is a completely different factor that only applies to e-publishing. I think that PDF sales are down significantly more than print sales are. And this is because the factors are different. This makes it a different discussion entirely.

 

[DaveMage]

A large test of the market will take place this fall.

AEG has two giant projects: the 4 Accordlands books and whe World's Largest Dungeon. $260 for all of those products.

Both Green Ronin and FFG have box sets coming out.

And then there is Castle Zagyg - not d20 but I'll bet it will have an effect on the d20 market.

To top it all off, WotC is releasing Eberron *and* more products on a monthly basis. For a time, WotC was 1-2 products a month. This fall it's 3-4.

 

[RyanD]

At the store where I work at, we are not ordering/reordering anything d20 for stock unless it comes from AEG, Bastion, Fantasy Flight, Green Ronin, Malhavoc, Necromancer and Wotc. Special order only are: Atlas, Fast Forward, Fiery Dragon, Goodman, Kenzer, Mongoose, Sword & Sorcery, and a few others.

Then figure out how to raise the barrier of entry so the market is not so flooded with new one shots from newbie publishers.

Question asked, question answered.

Ryan