d20 bubble bust?- High Prices, too many books

[Lokishadow]

Not Burst, but...

...Oversaturated. That's a good way to put it, whoever beat me to it.

The big problem? In my opinion? OGL

That's right, the Open Gaming License. I found two different d20 Modern Martial Arts handbooks, and they were both essentially the same, just reworded to avoid plagarism. I bought neither.

The problem with OGL is the same thing that's good about it: Anyone can publish anything d20 without special dispensation from WotC. Specific stipulations within the OGL 1.0a (as I understand it, you lawyers out there feel free to correct me) allow the reprinting of ANY RULE, but not any sort of original creative subject matter...such as the name of the feat, spell, item, etc. The result is, not purely by coincedence, the same thing can get published with a different "flavor" a dozen times, and anyone can reprint anyone else's rules material. So, take "Fireball" and call it "Blast of Flaming Doom" and viola! a "new spell!" Same stats and everything, but, oh! the name is DIFFERENT!!

Whoopee for ye.

I personally think that WotC needs to revise the OGL, just to reduce the market saturation. Yeah, it was a great marketing strategy, but I'm getting tired of "Elf 59.713b Player's Guidebook" or "How to Kung-Fu Your DM v.173.956x."

There is one thing coming from Mongoose that I'm going to buy, even if it is up in the astronomical $50 bracket: Lone Wolf. I cut my teeth on Lone Wolf books, and I've dreamed of playing a Kai Monk since I picked up my first D&D book.

Incedentally, why are they called "ocean monks?" Kai means ocean or sea in Japanese.

 

[dead]

I don't think the d20 bubble will burst. I think it will stay strong for somewhile yet. As to gaming company "death" . . . well yes, I think that there are a lot of companies dropping dead -- or never being born -- but they're not d20. They're all those unique systems that are not d20 and they have two choices: assimilate or die (or not even be born).

Economics forces new game designers to use d20. If they don't they'll go under. It's kind of like being in a multicultural society and seeing the minority cultures assimilate with the main culture. No one is directly forcing them to, but they have to due to indirect forces: economics, predjudice, etc -- of course, we're talking about roleplaying games here so it's not such a "heavy" issue. The very fact that d20 is a free system, and that it's taken the market by storm, is indirectly making people decide to use d20 for their newly published game instead of designing a system with its own identity.

I play D&D and d20 and don't much play other systems anymore.

 

[MerricB]

Economics forces new game designers to use d20. If they don't they'll go under.

I don't think it's quite that black and white. What I think is that it means that for a non-d20 RPG to be successful, it has to be a lot better than before.

Really standout RPGs will succeed regardless of system. Licences help in getting them noticed, of course.

Consider what effect the WEG Star Wars game would have if it was released for the first time now (assume d20 Star Wars doesn't exist). It has a strong game system, and a strong license.

However, for a game designer who just wants to do "another D&D variant", d20 is by far the best option. (If the original D&D had been released as OGL, would Palladium be OGL, based on the D&D rules?)

I'm sure that when stores/distributors look at stocking new games, books, videos or whatever, they look for various things. It's not just "what system?" there's also "what company?", "what author?", "what license?" and "has something similar sold well before?"

Cheers!

 

[MerricB]

Imagine a Harry Potter RPG. Does it matter what system it uses? Not for the initial orders.

If it is a good game, it will then survive and prosper. If not, it'll fail, regardless of whether it uses d20 or not.

Cheers!

 

[trancejeremy]

I think it probably burst last year, that was when many of the smaller companies quit (Second World Simulations, Perpetrated Press, Guildhouse Games, several of the adventure companies, maybe Avalanche Press) and those that survived, drastically reduced their output (Mystic Eye games, even Bastion Press to an extent).

And some, like Chaosium and Pinnacle (and now FFG), seem to have dropped d20 in favor of their own systems. And others, like Mongoose, Green Ronin, and AEG, seem to be jumping off the d20 bandwagon into the OGL bandwagon, since they've built up their own brand name, they don't need the d20 logo so much.

 

[baradtgnome]

If it is a good game, it will then survive and prosper. If not, it'll fail, regardless of whether it uses d20 or not.

Thanks Merric for the segway...

Adam Smith - Wealth of Nations
"He generally, indeed, neither intends to promote the public interest, nor knows how much he is promoting it. By preferring the support of domestic to that of foreign industry, he intends only his own security; and by directing that industry in such a manner as its produce may be of the greatest value, he intends only his own gain, and he is in this, as in many other cases, led by an invisible hand to promote an end which was no part of his intention.

<<<<<<<< ok, sorry for that diversion to early economic theory >>>>>>>>

So let's talk about the gaming market. OK, so let's talk about me. I'm not a 'typical' gamer (if there is one). 25+ years of playing. I am not ricidulously wealthy, however at this point in my life I can afford to buy many more products than I do. The limit for me is time. I'd use products that I can easily add to my game, or are so interesting that I buy it regardless of whether I can add it to my game or not. {homebrew 3.0 migrating to 3.5} The other limit is 1/2 of the players in my game don't want significant change in the game, because of the time they would need to invest in learning the new rules. So the scarce resource here is time, and more specifically gaming time.

Marketing researchers take note.

 

[Nightfall]

Uhm well the fact is, everything costs more. It used to be you couldn't live being a plumber. Now people need plumbers and they get more than teachers. Sad but true.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

This would mean that publishers who were in it for the hobby and not the business end would be forced to look at different options such as pdf or print on demand releases. I'm sure there are other solutions, but this one certainly establishes a much higher bar for entry.

And how exactly does raising the bar to the point where only the people who are in it for the money, while excluding the people who are in it for the love of the hobby, improve the quality of d20 material?

Sorry, but from where this gamer is sitting, most of the crap on the market is being shoveled by "established" companies who are clearly in the d20 market to strip mine it.

Gosh, how the landscape of d20 would have changed if we'd taken that elitist approach.

If I'm going to have to wade through crap, I'd like to at least have the hope of finding a gem in there, somewhere.


Wulf

 

[scourger]

bubble hasn't burst

The bubble has not burst for me, but my buying has been refined. I'm not looking for big books detailing a new d20/OGL game. The core books present more than enough material for me, especially with the release of 3.5, thank you very much. I subscribe to Dungeon and will keep doing so for adventures. I buy the occasional module if it looks really good and is not too long. I'll also pick up a new camapign setting if it is short & intriguing (i.e. anything in the FFG Horizon line; also pdfs like Mini Game Magazine and Gates of Troy look promising). I bought Skull & Bones, but I'm only using less than 1/4 of the material for setting information and ship rules. I'm still picking up Judge Dredd supplements. Even though I don't use them in game, I like to read them.

In short, I don't need a bunch of new, alternate or variant rules. I just want to play the game in new & exciting ways with the minimum alteration necessary to the core. So, my buying is refined. It's probably lessened as a consequence.

 

[dead]

Imagine a Harry Potter RPG. Does it matter what system it uses? Not for the initial orders.

If it is a good game, it will then survive and prosper. If not, it'll fail, regardless of whether it uses d20 or not.

Cheers!

I think the Harry Potter RPG is an unfair example. This RPG would be riding on the success of its books and motion picture success. Most people buying it would be Potter fans as opposed to RPG enthusiasts.

So I ask: What non-d20 RPGs have been released since d20 -- and that are not based on a major motion picture -- and have survived in the market?