d20 bubble bust?- High Prices, too many books

[MerricB]

So I ask: What non-d20 RPGs have been released since d20 -- and that are not based on a major motion picture -- and have survived in the market?

One could also ask "What RPGs were released before d20 that did not survive in the market?" The number of successful, ongoing RPGs is very small compared to the failures.

It is also worth looking at the CCG industry, and the non-licensed CCGs that have done well after Magic. (In particular, Legend of the Five Rings).

Then you can look at the licensed RPGs that use the d20 SRD (even if they're not d20 System trademarked), and those that use a different system.

Cheers!

 

[Sholari]

Economics forces new game designers to use d20. If they don't they'll go under.

It's not too different than most computer manufacturers having to use Intel processors or go out of business. Between Intel's branding and their MDF, it is pretty difficult for other CPU manufacturers to get traction unless there is some substantial economic benefit.

 

[diaglo]

And the other thing folks bring up in defense of RPG prices is value -- my DM just finished up almost TWO YEARS of using one module (Banewarrens) -- that was, what, $15 that was very well spent.

at $10 it would've been money well spent. read the title of the Story hour in my sig for the retail price of Banewarrens.

 

[buzz]

FYI

Q) Assuming that most d20 releases are of a mediocre quality, do you think this hurts the d20 brand and/or the d20 industry?

I believe in Sturgeon's Law: 90% of everything is crap.

Prior to the OGL/D20 project, at the height of TSR's madness, a D&D buyer might have 10 new D&D products to consider each month. Per Sturgeon's Law, that meant 12 "non crap" products a year. (And that release schedule was not sustainable and was part of the reason TSR died, and I (as a former purchaser of those products) would argue that the "non crap" percentage was a lot lower than 10%.)

In 2004, with 30-40 new D20 products being released each month, Sturgeon's Law tells us that there are 36-48 "non crap" products being released each year, most of which are totally compatible with D&D! What a Renaissance!

So the way I look at matters, a discerning buyer who reads reviews, listens to feedback, and examines the stuff they buy before they buy it with an eye towards finding the "non crap" has 3 or 4 >TIMES< as much great stuff to buy now as they have ever had. And the internet makes it vastly easier to sieve the "non crap" from the rest.

That isn't hurting the industry - it is helping the industry. It is creating a strong economic incentive to produce "non crap" or go out of business. Customers are a harsh taskmaster. They are very unforgiving. You don't get to screw them very often before they cease being your customer, and getting a lapsed customer back is horrifically hard and expensive. There will be a payoff for everyone after this spell of economic Darwinism has run its course in the form of more responsive companies with a better ability to meet customers needs.

I think that the days of 30-40 new products a month are almost over. And I hope, because of the unique effects of the OGL, that the ratio of "non crap" to "crap" will shift upwards as the total number of releases declines. Even a move to 20% "non crap" would have a big impact, in my opinion - the number of monthly releases could be cut in half, and we'd still have the benefits of 36 to 48 "non crap" products a year.

 

[JDJarvis]

$10.00 these days would have been less the $4.50 in the very late seventies/very early eighties.
Pick a current book do the math, then see what it would have cost in the good old days.

currrent dollars * 0.44 = good old days dollars

 

[diaglo]

$10.00 these days would have been less the $4.50 in the very late seventies/very early eighties.
Pick a current book do the math, then see what it would have cost in the good old days.

currrent dollars * 0.44 = good old days dollars

i know. read my earlier post about my complaining about the price of products back in ye olde dayes too.

 

[buzz]

So I ask: What non-d20 RPGs have been released since d20 -- and that are not based on a major motion picture -- and have survived in the market?

Exalted (big time)
Buffy/Angel (not a major motion picture!)
HERO 5e (do new editions count?)

...and you could make arguments for:

Demon, Orpheus, Savage Worlds, HeroQuest, Riddle of Steel, and probably some others I'm forgetting.

It also all depends on how one defines "survived in the market".

 

[RyanD]

Sorry - maybe was misunderstood.

The original poster said "there should be a barrier to entry", then said "my store only orders d20 products from this select list of publishers we trust".

That >is< a barrier to entry. And it is a barrier that is spreading rapidly. The days when any publisher could release any product and get a large number of stores to stock it are over. Now, you have to earn space on the wall via sales performance, and indications that your future work will keep up with the overall quality bar of your peers.

In my opinion, that's the best solution to the long term problem of the "d20 glut" - responsible purchasing by distributors and retailers.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

The original poster said "there should be a barrier to entry", then said "my store only orders d20 products from this select list of publishers we trust".

That >is< a barrier to entry. And it is a barrier that is spreading rapidly. The days when any publisher could release any product and get a large number of stores to stock it are over. Now, you have to earn space on the wall via sales performance, and indications that your future work will keep up with the overall quality bar of your peers.

In my opinion, that's the best solution to the long term problem of the "d20 glut" - responsible purchasing by distributors and retailers.

As a "small publisher" who some would apparently like to choke off, I agree.

Frankly, I haven't seen the shelves of my game store crammed with titles from "fanboys." Seems to me it is the "fanboys" who release only infrequently, and then often only after critical acclaim from the PDF crowd. I'd love to hear to short list of PRINT titles from "upstarts" that folks think are causing the glut. I think that's a load of elitist crap, myself. Cause I just don't see it.

And I'd like to note that under the "3-6 products printed and ready to distribute" barrier, we wouldn't have Magical Medieval Society, we wouldn't have Redhurst Academy, we wouldn't have Lords of the Night, and we wouldn't have most of Monte's stuff. Monte started with one PDF and found an audience.

No, I've seen shelves packed to bursting with "shovelware" (I love that term) from bigger publishers who seemingly will publish anything just to keep their status as a "big dog"-- cutting corners on art, illustration, editing, graphic design, cover design, and yes, game design.

And here is where I disagree with Ryan. I think for some companies, part of the business plan entails shoveling so much product that the retailers don't know any better. "This company seems to have a lot of product. Everything they do must be good."

The guys who release one product in a 3 month cycle are not causing "glut." Ten products per month per company-- that causes a glut.

It would be a wonderful world if every retailer had as much knowledge about d20 releases as the average ENworld visitor. That's step one to the solution.

Customers who consistently reward companies who publish crap are not without blame either. How many products that are just average are you going to buy before you start witholding your dollars and demanding 4 and 5 star products? Nobody is holding companies to a higher standard, and as long as crap sells, crap is what you'll get.

Wulf

 

[EricNoah]

It would be a wonderful world if every retailer had as much knowledge about d20 releases as the average ENworld visitor. That's step one to the solution.

Educating the masses about D20 System products has been one of the (possibly unspoken) missions of the site. We need a well-educated mass of players to vote intelligently in the ENnies for one thing.

So, how do we get retailers to read reviews or become more educated about this stuff? What incentive can we (EN World) offer them other than the immediate promise of better sales (which we can't truly offer them)? Where do retailers generally get their information from, anyway?