d20 future = Mechwarrior d20

[D.Shaffer]

*cut cut cut*Welcome to the wonder world of a 20+ year old game, and the various changes that have occured over the years ^.^

Neurohelmets appear to change from author to author. One might have then as a glorified gyroscope. Others have them as controlling everything but the eject button. ATM I think the official stance is it's a bit of both. The controls are there for the gross movements, but the helmet helps out. You cant control the entire mech with the neurohelmet, but if you tried to pilot one without it, you'd just end up flat on your face. The Clan EI system acts more like a traditional 'waldo' control and give better control without using a helmet, but it has rather nasty side effects. The IS has experimented with similar systems, but those have even nastier side effects.

Autocannons: Autocannons have changed a bit. Originally they appeared to be one shot cannon, but currently in the fiction and fluff text they're firing bursts of shells. Ultra and Rotary autocannon just have higher rates of fire then a normal autocannon, and jam easier because of it.

Armor: Battletech universe armor is TOUGH. IF you can find some of the earlier fluff text of the Mackie, the first battlemech, it basically won because its armor shrugged off the shells off the tanks it went up against. This was pre-Succession wars. And the Mackie's armor is considered LIGHT in the modern CBT universe. A modern tank's shell would bounce off it.

Range: This is purely a game balance issue. If you can find a copy of the MW:RPG-Mechwarriors Guide to Solaris, they have a 'dueling' system in the back where weapon ranges are expanded to 100 meters per hex (And makes it harder to hit at range). The TT game just shortens everything by assuming that terrain is going to limit it to around that much anyways It's also a game balance issue they put in so they could keep melee attacks as a valid tactic. When they used more 'realistic' ranges in playtest, it turned into shooting matches.

Targeting: You have to aim because the target isnt standing still That and the various targeting systems they have can still be spoofed or interrupted by ground clutter.

 

[JEL]

I like how Patlabor and Gasaraki explained how giant robot controls work. Controls would work like a video game. Think of those advanced fighting games where a series of joystick moves and button presses has the game character act out an intricate maneuver. The computer is handling details and doing the real work. The pilot just tells it what he wants done.

 

[jester47]

I like how Patlabor and Gasaraki explained how giant robot controls work. Controls would work like a video game. Think of those advanced fighting games where a series of joystick moves and button presses has the game character act out an intricate maneuver. The computer is handling details and doing the real work. The pilot just tells it what he wants done.

yeah, but why not have 1 button for it? In my reimagining, the Neurohelmet will be all that is needed to control the mech. Dummy controls will be in the cockpits to help the pilot make stronger impulses for the helmet to pick up on. That way, the psychological well being of the pilot comes into play. [edit] but I am still thinking about the "backup" control idea in that redundancy is a good thing in hostile environments.

A.

 

[jester47]

For ranges I refer you to this little conversation. Check out post #85. Our own ENWorld experts agree, different kinds of guns have different effective ranges. So while I agree with you that the ranges in BT are for game balance and to make it interesting, I also think that having an array of different ranges is also realistic in a way, given the above conversation.

I would agree that the ranges of the weapons are much longer than those given in the game. In fact there is a new rule for "extreme" ranges. In Classic BT.

In the d20 verison I am cobbleing together everything is a cloud of probablility. And I think the ranges work out and are more realistic. In this method a bad arse targeting comp could really make attacks at a longer range possible.

Ranged attacks are based on the number of increments to the target. This is a ranged touch attack essentially. Like all other d20 the base to beat is a 10 plus other factors. Quite easy at range inc 0. But your weapons have to get through the DR. The way I am setting it up, PPCs, LRM20s, and AC20s do 4d12 points of damage. The range increments will be equal to the number of dice times 30 meters. Autocannons, keeping with the tradition of the game will have slightly different range incs. Weapon combos have a better chance of getting through DR. Like 2 PPCs fired at the same time would do 8d12. When fireing combos of weapons with lower damage ratings you use the range incs of the lesser weapon. If you hit with that ML you for sure hit with that PPC that fired at the same time. DR for a mech tops out at 30 with a 1:1 conversion rate for armor tons. Special armor adds DR. An unarmored mech has a DR of 10.

It seems like this will allow for realistic fights and also translate the spirit of the original game.

Aaron.

 

[JEL]

yeah, but why not have 1 button for it? A.

If you did one button per maneuver, you'd end up with a lot of buttons, which would slow down the pilot's reaction time.

 

[jester47]

If you did one button per maneuver, you'd end up with a lot of buttons, which would slow down the pilot's reaction time.

No, I meant one button for any maneuver! I kind of think that is sort of neat, but I like the idea of the mech being a zen thing. I think in my reimagining training to be a mechwarrior is sort of like training to be a jedi, or lerning the weirding way. There is lots of "let it flow", "do or do not there is no try", learning to control your emotions etc. Even then there could be many different schools, with differences sort of like the light and dark sides of the force. Whereas one technique is very zen and emotionaly controled, another focues hate and anger, a third could be very regimented while the fourth teaches you use ideas and resources around you. I like this notion over the idea that a Mechwarrior is simply someone good at pressing the right combos of buttons.

 

[Henry Hankovich]

I like how Patlabor and Gasaraki explained how giant robot controls work. Controls would work like a video game. Think of those advanced fighting games where a series of joystick moves and button presses has the game character act out an intricate maneuver. The computer is handling details and doing the real work. The pilot just tells it what he wants done.

Hm...Gasaraki, though (which I actually liked as a model of how "walking" armor could be integrated into modern mobile warfare) sort of "cheats" in the same respect that Evangelion does. They originally say that rudimentary movements (bend the knee, lift the leg, lean forward, take a step) are handled by an AI system, such that the pilot is effectively only using the controls to indicate what the machine should do, instead of controlling its individual motions. However, later in the series, they rather strongly imply that the so-called AI is based on some weird ancient demon-armor artifact thingy...so the implication is, that the Gasaraki mecha have some form of intelligence residing in them, one which already "knows" how to run, jump, etc.

It's much the same in Eva, but more so--since the Evas are basically independent biological beings, the "pilots" don't actually do anything in the cockpit but provide suggestions. When the pilot "tells" the machine to jump through a hoop, it's basically the same process as a lion trainer telling an animal to jump through a hoop. And every so often a trainer gets eaten...

Back on-topic--since we're going into a Cyberpunk type setting anyway, why not ditch the "neurohelmet" and just go with some sort of bona fide input jack? Like Ghost in the Shell, etc. At that point, you can go with whatever level of "pilot immersion" you want to imagine: you can have the mecha essentially supplanting the pilot's body, a la The Matrix; or you could merely have the mecha using the pilot's subconscious or "muscle-memory" impulses for leg movement and balance, while retaining traditional controls for targeting and such.

Hell, you could--as you've already implied--make an entire system out of different levels of "pilot immersion," and use skill checks or feats to advance one's ability. So a really skilled/gifted pilot can go a lot "deeper" with his mental input, while a newb would be dependant on external controls for as much as possible--and would handle walking, jumping, navigating obstacles, and such, a lot less effectively as a result.

And, your different mechs can reward or penalize this, like you mentioned with Locust pilots. You could say that, for instance, a mech with articulated arms and hands like a Phoenix Hawk would require a higher level of pilot immersion to use properly, as opposed to a Rifleman, whose "arms" aren't any more advanced than a helicopter chin-turret. So, the newb can only use the Phoenix Hawk's arms as he would a Rifleman--as glorified sponson turrets; but using them to pick things up, throw punches, aim a weapon around a corner, or whatever, would require a higher level of pilot immersion. The same for chickenlegs vs human legs (maybe, in our system, chickenlegs are more efficient, therefore faster, but harder to control), versus quad legs (increased stability, but slower and harder to control).

So, most people have a certain minimal level of functionality with a mech's brain-jack (assuming they have basic pilot training); but performing more advanced actions requires feats or skill ranks, or whatever. Kind of like Ride checks for cavalry. So maybe aiming your rifle around a corner without exposing the rest of your mech is a DC 15 "mech piloting" check, while avoiding falling down after taking a hit is DC 5, or whatever. Then you could have feats (or class attributes at level) that allowed you to do stuff like, say, adding the pilot's attribute bonuses to the mech's default abilities. Like our mech's "Armor Class" for a default pilot is 10, but at "Mechwarrior level 5" you get the ability to add your own Dex bonus to the mech's AC, or some such.

 

[jester47]

This is why I post to these boards!

*** Gasaraki's and Evas ***

Back on-topic--since we're going into a Cyberpunk type setting anyway, why not ditch the "neurohelmet" and just go with some sort of bona fide input jack? Like Ghost in the Shell, etc. At that point, you can go with whatever level of "pilot immersion" you want to imagine: you can have the mecha essentially supplanting the pilot's body, a la The Matrix; or you could merely have the mecha using the pilot's subconscious or "muscle-memory" impulses for leg movement and balance, while retaining traditional controls for targeting and such.

Well, I was looking at publising dates. Neuromancer was published in 1984. Battletech had its genesis from 84-85. In Neuromancer, The main character Case does not have a jack. Yet he just slaps on some trodes and he's in. This was a major inspiration to my reimainging but one that I had not told anyone about on these forums. Though you have taken it to another clearer level, with different levels of capability basedon the ability to imerse yourself into the machine.

Hell, you could--as you've already implied--make an entire system out of different levels of "pilot immersion," and use skill checks or feats to advance one's ability. So a really skilled/gifted pilot can go a lot "deeper" with his mental input, while a newb would be dependant on external controls for as much as possible--and would handle walking, jumping, navigating obstacles, and such, a lot less effectively as a result.

This is a good idea. It puts a couple of the pieces together. Though I would not make the "noob" to "ace" range quite as drastic. It allows the controls thier placebo button/reminder for the pilot role and their backup/primary system role.

And, your different mechs can reward or penalize this, like you mentioned with Locust pilots.

This was the plan all along. Each mech in the 3025 readout has certain quirks and background that does not make it into the game. This is a great way to make piloting a particular mech a unique experience. (esp since many have certain customisations).

You could say that, for instance, a mech with articulated arms and hands like a Phoenix Hawk would require a higher level of pilot immersion to use properly, as opposed to a Rifleman, whose "arms" aren't any more advanced than a helicopter chin-turret. So, the newb can only use the Phoenix Hawk's arms as he would a Rifleman--as glorified sponson turrets; but using them to pick things up, throw punches, aim a weapon around a corner, or whatever, would require a higher level of pilot immersion. The same for chickenlegs vs human legs (maybe, in our system, chickenlegs are more efficient, therefore faster, but harder to control), versus quad legs (increased stability, but slower and harder to control).

This is almost golden. The way I was thinking of going was that one is not more difficult to use than the other, but rather a mechwarrior gets used to a certain configuration. That is the Pheonix Hawk would be the most natural as it is shaped like a human, so the impulses translate quite easily. But say he lost the Hawk and took up to driving a scorpion. He would have a bit of a challenge cause his mind is not used to operating a mech of that configuration. Perhaps one of the benefits of a turret on legs (ala the Rifleman) is that it can aquire targets faster but one of the drawbacks is that is really blows at hand to hand.

So, most people have a certain minimal level of functionality with a mech's brain-jack (assuming they have basic pilot training); but performing more advanced actions requires feats or skill ranks, or whatever. Kind of like Ride checks for cavalry. So maybe aiming your rifle around a corner without exposing the rest of your mech is a DC 15 "mech piloting" check, while avoiding falling down after taking a hit is DC 5, or whatever. Then you could have feats (or class attributes at level) that allowed you to do stuff like, say, adding the pilot's attribute bonuses to the mech's default abilities. Like our mech's "Armor Class" for a default pilot is 10, but at "Mechwarrior level 5" you get the ability to add your own Dex bonus to the mech's AC, or some such.

Actually, what I plan on doing is making it to where your personal feats are used by the mech, with some special abilities available to PrCs, as I am going to use the Grim Tales versions of the d20 Modern character classes. So what you can do in a normal fight is what you can do in your mech.

Aaron.

 

[jester47]

It just occured to me that you can use a tree as a club in BT.

This changes everything. If a modern armor piercing tank round can't get through the mechs armor, why would whacking it with a tree work?

Hrm this is going to take more thought...

Aaron.

 

[Henry Hankovich]

It just occured to me that you can use a tree as a club in BT.

This changes everything. If a modern armor piercing tank round can't get through the mechs armor, why would whacking it with a tree work?

Hrm this is going to take more thought...

Aaron.

Short answer is, you can't. Except by falling or concussive damage (you can't "penetrate" the side of your computer by hitting it with a hammer, but it's not a good idea).

I'd say the whole tree-as-club thing was probably not a terribly great idea in the first place, assuming it ever did do a significant amound of damage. Probably best to nerf it or discard it.

More elaborate rules on hand-to-hand combat with mechs would effectively supplant it, anyway. Why try to pick up a tree when you can do more damage with a soccer kick...