[d20 Future/Star Wars] Starships?

[The Black Kestrel]

Umm... I have a silly question. Since starships in D20 Future use DR not hardness don't energy attacks bypass DR automatically? Hence DR is only good for physical attacks.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Umm... I have a silly question. Since starships in D20 Future use DR not hardness don't energy attacks bypass DR automatically? Hence DR is only good for physical attacks.

If they really get Damage Reduction, not Hardness, and there is no special note or change in the rules elsewehere - yes, you are right.

I want get back to my mommy... (My shipments always arrive there, because it is more probable that someone of my family is there to take it ) Then I might have the chance to look it up..

 

[Holy Bovine]

Umm... I have a silly question. Since starships in D20 Future use DR not hardness don't energy attacks bypass DR automatically? Hence DR is only good for physical attacks.

Uh, my copy of d20 Future says armour adds hardness to a spaceship.

Probably the biggest problem I have with these rules, aside from what will be 40+ round combats between the bigger ships, is that the ships are just fine and dandy until they reach 0 hp. The optional tables for critical hits are good but there really should be something else. I find it hard to accept that after blasting the same ship 20+ times with particle cannons and missles that there wouldn't be some kind of damage to weapon systems, communication hell maybe it knocked down the fuzzy dice. Anything to simulate a mounting amount of damage that begins to interfere with ship operations. As it stands now d20 Future spaceship combat is medicore at best.

 

[Pagan priest]

But that is consistant with the general treatment of hit points... there is no loss of effectiveness until the big burly fighter reaches 0, then he drops unconscious to the ground. One Cure Light Wounds later, and he is back in the battle, swinging for full effect again.

I haven't had a chance to look at the optional crit rules, but I suspect that might be the way I would go. Is there any option for adding more weapons to a ship? Or upgrading the weapons that are on it?

 

[johnnype]

Regarding slow ship combat, why not just drop the hardness values on some of the ships, say from 40 to 25? That should speed up combat a bit.

If you really want a rules system that offers more detail yet allows for fast fleet combat you might consider Lightning Strike from Dream Pod 9. It's not D20 so it might not work for some of you but it really is a great set of rules. My favorite feature is the possibility of critical systems failures and chain reactions which allow a well placed shot from a fighter, say, to disable and destroy a capital ship. Nice!

 

[Furluge]

i was confusing the two stat lines a bit. the strike cruiser does have antimatter guns, not fusions beams -- but they do the same damage, so that doesn't change the numbers at all.

the DC of the damage control check is 15 -- a trained crew succeeds on a 11, an expert crew only needs to roll a 7. strike cruisers have expert crews, so they succeed 70% of the time.

Yeah I did know that, I just wanted to inform you about that. And yes they do succeed a lot, if luck is with them of course. Since we're only rolling one die here the results as we all now are completely random without a single curve. A string of bad rolls and that damage is going to pile up. Also I think the critical hit effects table really plays a part here. I used to play Battletech (And my Battlespace game is sitting in it's box. Poor clearly unsupported product.) and the critical hits table is something I whole-heartedly support for this. Get a critical hit, kill some crew, suddenly those damage control checks are getting harder... tipping the tide of battle some.

I think the problem is you're focusing on things being killed so much. For the most parts these are naval engagements. You usually don't destroy enemies unless it's through good tactics, a well-placed shot, or a heavy concentration of fire. What's more likely to happen is that ships are forced to retreat from the battle where they'll spend months, maybe even years, drydocked for repairs, or to be scrapped to repair other items.


ok, a battlecruiser needs 39 successful hits with its heavy particle beams to destroy a strike cruiser. it needs 79 successful hits to destroy another battlecruiser. (this doesn't count in extra damage from possible missile hits or critical hits, but it's also ignoring damage control.) that's just too long for me. i don't want to limit PC starship combat to fighters; i want them to get involved in capital ship fights too. and even 39 rounds of combat seems way too long for me to devote to taking out a single capital ship.

according to the rules for forming wings, only the wing leader fires his weapons at the enemy. his wingmen use their attack actions for "aid another" to improve the wing leader's attack roll.

i still think the weapon damages are too low. especially considering that a ship-mounted fusion beam or antimatter gun (like what capital ships are using) does an average of 45 points of damage... a 6th or 7th level Tough Hero can take that and have a pretty good chance of walking away... (he's got enough hit points, and a good enough Fort save to make the massive damage save fairly easily.)

Yes, the fighter wings essentially makes it so that the fighters act like a starship battery. I mean if the fighters don't /need/ that aid another, split them up for more damage. Why do you think you always see the fighter ace flying on his own out of wing? And those fighter wings still have very good damage, and a Star Carrier can launch 18 wings of assault fighters (Remember we're PL 7). If we're at bare minimum PL 7, those 18 wings can deal 324d8 total, or if they're seperate that's 1,296d8. Now There's twelve squares around a middleweight ship, that means we can fit either 12 wings or 48 individual ships. Each attack would do 72 damage average, 32 after hardness. So our wings could do 384 a round and a swarm could do 1,536 damage a round. Does that appeal to you more. Of course that won't last forever because fighters will be destroyed but the carrier would have some more fighters to replaced the destroyed ones. Just remember to think of it navally. From looking at this the starship battles to me seem to favor large engagements of fleets of ships more so than tiny one on one battles.

But here's the /real/ kicker

Upon looking at the attack (ranged) action it states under that action that a starship may fire one /or more/ of it's ranged weapons, and you don't need to specify the number of attacks and their targets ahead of time. If I'm reading it right (And I hope I am. Finally a system where you can fire every weapon in a round like Btech.) then our starships just got a /whole/ lot more damage dealing potential as almost all of them have at least four weapons. Perhaps that's why the damages seem low. Just think it's like total attack for characters except it's an attack action, not a full round action, and if you'll notice the attack bonuses for ships never go into the lowering attack bonus progression, making it seem like every attack is at full bonus.

 

[d4]

What's more likely to happen is that ships are forced to retreat from the battle where they'll spend months, maybe even years, drydocked for repairs, or to be scrapped to repair other items.

but ships do not degrade in effectiveness until they reach 0 hit points, so there's nothing really that's forcing them to retreat.

Each attack would do 72 damage average, 32 after hardness. So our wings could do 384 a round and a swarm could do 1,536 damage a round. Does that appeal to you more.

no, actually i find that even more wrong. a wing of tiny fighters can take out a capital ship much, much faster than another capital ship. :\

then our starships just got a /whole/ lot more damage dealing potential as almost all of them have at least four weapons. Perhaps that's why the damages seem low.

the mediumweight combat ships generally only have two weapon systems; the heavy ships three. given how fast hit points increase as size increases, i just don't see it being enough.

mediumweight ships tend to have around 1,000 to 5,000 hit points; heavy ships from 5,000 to 10,000 hit points. they also tend to have around hardness 30 and 40.

given those numbers, having the average damage of their weapons hovering in the 50 to 100 range is IMO ludicrous.

...and if you'll notice the attack bonuses for ships never go into the lowering attack bonus progression, making it seem like every attack is at full bonus.

no, they don't seem to be making every attack at their full attack bonus... the stat blocks give their full attack options, and it seems like secondary attacks are always at a lower attack bonus than the primary attack.

 

[The_Universe]

A possibility, Gents:

I've tried to summarize the basic problem that this thread has been grappling with over here http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1702557#post1702557, while we have some of the designers attentions. Nonetheless, I am sure you can summarize your own arguments better than I could. Since I want as much clarification as possible, I though it might not hurt to see what the designers had to say...

 

[Furluge]

but ships do not degrade in effectiveness until they reach 0 hit points, so there's nothing really that's forcing them to retreat.

Think how long it takes to repair those thousands of hitpoints? Think how much /money/ it costs in labor and supplies. Not to mention that people inside that ship are /dying/. Also if you're using the critical hits sidebar then a critical or two and you're effectiveness /is/ going down before you hit 0 HPs. I mean yeah if you're a race of people that has a creepy hive mind and doesn't mind bringing home a ship breaking apart with only a few people inside it, sure, go right ahead, but if you're not controlling the space you're in, you've taken a few critical hits and you can't hit the broadside of a barn because the gunner is in a stretcher, then yes, you might want to think about retreating rather than sitting around to get pounded.

no, actually i find that even more wrong. a wing of tiny fighters can take out a capital ship much, much faster than another capital ship. :\

But that's generally how fighters work. They can't travel far, they're fragile, but dammit they've got a ton of guns strapped in front of them! I mean it worked in the Pacific in WW2. Don't think of fighters are tiny lone ships, think of them as a carrier's attack.

the mediumweight combat ships generally only have two weapon systems; the heavy ships three. given how fast hit points increase as size increases, i just don't see it being enough.

Whoops, I just realize they only have two weapons each, I wasn't seeing that or under weapons.

mediumweight ships tend to have around 1,000 to 5,000 hit points; heavy ships from 5,000 to 10,000 hit points. they also tend to have around hardness 30 and 40.

given those numbers, having the average damage of their weapons hovering in the 50 to 100 range is IMO ludicrous.

no, they don't seem to be making every attack at their full attack bonus... the stat blocks give their full attack options, and it seems like secondary attacks are always at a lower attack bonus than the primary attack.

I'm pretty sure those lower bonuses aren't from attacks being made at lower bonuses like a character's would, it seems to be that the targeting system can only assist one attack per round. Still, two attacks per round with a move action is still a lot more than the piddly damage we've been suggesting here. Once again it comes down to luck, who manages to land more of their attacks each round.

Now I'm going to go check out that Q&A Thread.

 

[Holy Bovine]

Think how long it takes to repair those thousands of hitpoints? Think how much /money/ it costs in labor and supplies. Not to mention that people inside that ship are /dying/. Also if you're using the critical hits sidebar then a critical or two and you're effectiveness /is/ going down before you hit 0 HPs. I mean yeah if you're a race of people that has a creepy hive mind and doesn't mind bringing home a ship breaking apart with only a few people inside it, sure, go right ahead, but if you're not controlling the space you're in, you've taken a few critical hits and you can't hit the broadside of a barn because the gunner is in a stretcher, then yes, you might want to think about retreating rather than sitting around to get pounded.

That is an excellent point. The optional crit rules are a defiante bright spot for starship comabt. Really I think just a few things liek that to simulate battle damage before hitting '0' hp would go a long way to allievating my problems with the rules.

But that's generally how fighters work. They can't travel far, they're fragile, but dammit they've got a ton of guns strapped in front of them! I mean it worked in the Pacific in WW2. Don't think of fighters are tiny lone ships, think of them as a carrier's attack.

Agreed. Fighter planes were very effective against battleships during WW2. I liked the idea of carrying this over to space combat.

Whoops, I just realize they only have two weapons each, I wasn't seeing that or under weapons.

I think a lot of my (and maybe d4's) problems would be solved just by increasing either the number of weapons per ship or the amount of damage each inflicts. Even just a couple of extra dice per weapon would go a long way to speeding up combat.

Now I'm going to go check out that Q&A Thread.

me too!