[D20 Future] Starship Rules

[Aussiegamer]

well yes and no.

Yes the GM can say in the end what every they like, after all it is their game.

no as the game should have some guidelines in place to help

ie every x meters extra a ship is past say 2km it increases size and modifies the size mod etc.

I can't beleive a Medium is the same size as a SH. they are a lot bigger but still only at -8 size mod?? seems off to me.

A game system should allw for growth into various areas. If you want a 500' mecha then OK here are the basics and you can put it all together.

But true a campaign system pretty much says this is it and enjoy.

 

[Ranger REG]

I can't beleive a Medium is the same size as a SH. they are a lot bigger but still only at -8 size mod?? seems off to me.

???

Well, you did ask for an upper limit and -8 size penalty is the maximum penalty you can give. I still don't see why we need more penalty, unless this is only for ranged attack. I mean, how difficult it is to hit a colossal with a bat, aside from rolling an automatic miss (natural 1)? I mean after colossal, you are simply just taking up more space on the battlemap.

But the part about treating ships as creatures where you must apply its size modifier to ship's attack rolls (or in this case, the gunners' attack rolls) does confuse me. Somehow I can't find the rationale in that.

 

[Aussiegamer]

why is -8 the maximum?

I really don't want to talk about the -8 as I have been discussing what happens if a mecha fights a space craft on Wizards and it got quite hot and heated.

But OK I will give it a try here and see what others think.

surely a larger thing is easier to hit and thus a craft larger than SH (even if it is still SH because you don't want to call it some new type size) is easier to hit than the SH.

there are plenty of other factors which lend themsleves to allowing the AC and the to hit to drop below 1, range, movement, cover/ concealment etc. We don't stand next to each other, not moving, on a obstacle free open area, shooting at each other. So then the increasing mods allow for other factors to be allowed into the combats.

Thus allowing the size mod to incease above -8 brings all the ships into a better line for there chances to hit each other and be hit.

The d20F system has basically all the ships at -8, so it seems a bit unfair for the smaller ships as they don't gain any size advantage V the SH. And they should they are far smaller, take example meduim human V huge dragon (I can't think of another huge creature right now ) the human is only 5' and the dragon 20' so 1/4th the size. The dragon gets a -2 size mod for the to hit and AC.

Star freighter is 1800' and the light ships are 500'. OK only a 1/3 but still worthy of a size mod of -2 at least, and thats by ratio.

To me every size increase for the size of the ships should gain -2 not the internal size. the huge/ gargantuan or colossal but the UL, L....SH.

But the part about treating ships as creatures where you must apply its size modifier to ship's attack rolls (or in this case, the gunners' attack rolls) does confuse me. Somehow I can't find the rationale in that.

Thats called finding a simple way to do the combats, treat them like creatures and the rules are already written for them. But AOO for ranged weapons??? thats a bit of a strech.


Size/ Physical size/ Size Mod
Behemoth/ 10.1-60km/ -40
Super Heavy/ 7km-10km/ -38
Heavy/ 4km-6.99km/ –34
Medium/ 1km-3.99km/ –32
Light Medium/ 700m-999m/ -30
Light/ 400m-699m/ -28
Massive 4/ 326m-399m/ -26
Massive 3/ 251-325m/ -24
Massive 2/ 176-250m/ -22
Massive 1/ 100-175m/ -20
CC/ 80-99m/ -18
GC/ 60-79m/ -16
HC/ 50-69m/ -14
LC/ 30-49m/ -12
MC/ 11-29m/ -10
Colossal/ 10m/ -8
Gargantuan/ 8m/ -4
Huge/ 6m/ -2
Large/ 4m/ -1
Medium/ 2m/ 0

Special case:
Ultra Light (1)/ 91m-399m
They keep the slots of the space craft but size mod is by its actual size.

 

[Black Pharaoh]

'cept space is big (really, really big) and the size of the ships really shouldn't matter that much to targeting systems that can target objects moving at the velocities space combat would entail.

 

[Aussiegamer]

A targeting systems give bonuses to hit, yes. But it needs to be considered against the entire roll to hit v AC.

Thus should a light craft, in d20F, be the same to hit as a SH no it is bigger. Every system that I have seen has a size type mod for larger + creatures.

The range of a long bow compared to the to hit a colossal? I think D&D 3.5 has it at 120' thus 10x range is 1200', and -20 to hit for range mod. Now if they are firing at a large then it is only -19, huge -18, gargantuan -16 and colossal -12.

Here you can see that the targetting system helps even more, but whats the point if everything is the same size. Those lights are going to get pasted by the SH every time same AC and to hit!

Now look at the same in craft, except for UL they all will be at -12 for max range. Seems a bit unfair considering a light is only 500' big compared to a 1800' SH.

Like I said you have to see the whole picture not just a bit to understand the problems with having limited size mods.

Then what about mecha in a fight with space craft, and I can think of plenty of examples of it happening. What size mod you going to impose for a colossal mecha of only 128' compared to the UL of 250' and SH of 1800'?

OK you don't use mecha from d20F but the point is the same for anything, you need a usable size mod system to allow for everything to fight everything.

 

[kingpaul]

why is -8 the maximum?

Base AC/Defense is 10. With a maximum penalty of -8, that means anything but a 1 hits. Increase that penalty and you still have anything but a 1 hitting.

Unless, as Ranger pointed out, you're talking ranged attacks only.

 

[Aussiegamer]

if you look at the rules for d20F there are already - to hits and -AC figures for space craft, even with targetting systems added.

What is the worry about having -1 AC?

It is a short range, no movement, no cover or concealment, no feats such as dodge, no negative attacking feats like burst etc etc etc. These still need to be applied just as size was.

It is just the base before all the other factors are applied. So what?

OK you end up with -13AC and the opponent has -20 to hit after everything is taken into account, that just means you have a 7 on the d20 to hit.

And Ok you end up with -1AC after everything taken into account, so you can't miss. OK so what? (ignoring the nat 1 roll miss factor)

Surely the size of the target must be reflected in the AC of the target and the to hit of the attacker. Does it matter if they are both negative, nope! not a bit.

Again you are assuming thats why the top out at -8, but show me the rule or FAQ for D&D3.5 or d20 or any major system that says thats why.

Why does it matter if you are talking ranged or melee the rules are the same, excpet for rnage to hit mod of course . Again so what if you can't miss except for a nat 1, that's part of the game.

You can have a super to hit that basically means you can't miss a positive AC excpet for a nat 1 already in the game.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

According to the rules, the lowest you can roll is a 1, even if modifiers bring the number lower...its still a 1. So what's the point of negative ACs? If you get hit by a 1 anyway, why does it matter if you drop the AC to below 1?

 

[Aussiegamer]

what rule where?

and that's my point OK you have a negative AC target, means you can hit it from futher away or with some special move that reduces the to hit etc. The final AC to the tohit is the only real factor that needs to be looked at.

And if there is a rule then d20F is not using it already.

ATTACK ROLL
An attack roll represents your attempt to strike your opponent on your turn in a round. When you make an attack roll, you roll a d20 and add your attack bonus. (Other modifiers may also apply to this roll.) If your result equals or beats the target’s Armor Class, you hit and deal damage.

SRD D&D3.5

don't see any mention of min 1 roll only a d20 roll added to the to hit v AC.

Attack Roll
An attack roll represents a character’s attempts to strike an opponent on the character’s turn in a round. When a character makes an attack roll, he or she rolls 1d20 and adds his or her attack bonus. If the result equals or beats the target’s Defense, the character hits and deals damage. Many modifiers can affect the attack roll.

SRD d20 modern

says the same.

 

[Chuckling Ogre]

A little off topic

Hi Here is a site that can give you a bunch of ship length, and it's fun to browse to.

http://www.merzo.net/

It will let you compare starship from differnt sources as well , drag and compare... Might be a good resource...

Now I'll crawl back to my cave and lurk.


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