d20 Hatred near you?

[buzz]

I really, really doubt that Palladium is the #2 company in the industry, or even the #2 product line (I would imagine that honor would go to Vampire or Star Wars).

As Ken Hite states in his report cited earlier in this thread, Palladium "takes it traditional place at number three." The "we're number 2!" ad copy is just blowing smoke.

Siembedia is just kind of a goof, though people obviously like what he does.

 

[buzz]

That's very interesting, but entirely beside the point. The question is -- is d20 in fact having a negative impact on the market by perpetuating a myth that systems can't be combined? I don't find any of the evidence [Woodelf has] presented to be very compelling.

I was going to labor over a big honking reply to this thread, but Barsoom basically saved me the time. Thanks!

 

[Von Ether]

And of those i know who'd given up D&D during the AD&D2 era, i don't think any of them have come back to D&D during the D20 System era.

Congrats, now you know one.

I was a AD&D hater.

For years, I was a totaly frustrated gamer stuck in rural towns where AD&D was THE only game for the 80s and 90s. It was always an uphill battle to get people to play anything other than AD&D or fantasy, I was frankly getting tired of even gaming since I couldn't play -- or even run -- anything I wanted to.

Then I moved to the big city at the same time that the DnD 3.0 hit the shelves. Even before d20, I could see that this version was built for kitbashing, people wanted to play it because it was "new" (simply incorporating some of the mechanical innovations that I had been trying to have AD&D players embrace for years) and better yet, since it was "DnD" I was guarenteed a waiting list of players to join.

It wasn't a great system, but it was enough of a comprimise for me to live with and as I predicted, no matter what setting I put on the table, people come play becuase it is "DnD."

Oddly enough, I have never run "DnD." Even when I owned only the PHB for a year and a half, I ran all sorts of stuff from d20 Castle Falkenstien to Deadlands. Later I got the Star Wars book.

Recently, I've decided to cut back on my gaming, I dropped the DnD games I am playing in. Down the road though, I am contemplating either Spycraft or d20 Modern.

 

[evildmguy]

Hmmm.

My need to be understood is surfacing. However, I will never be totally understood in this format. I will try, though, for some strange reason. This doesn't mean convince others that my way is right for them. It means convince others why my way is right for me.

I am not a d20 hater. There are some very good d20 systems out there. Part of my answers, though, are dependent on a lot of things, including my time to play. Given work, prep time and general busy-ness, I can GM a game once a week. Most of the players I know prefer Fantasy over SciFi or Modern. A few have been open to Modern, or perhaps Star Wars, but usually not SciFi. That means that anything good SciFi probably won't be played. Even some modern RPGs have been used as mostly one shots, with only one or two exceptions, in my total playing years.

Therefore, in saying all of that, I would gladly play in, if I could find, or run a Spycraft or Stargate d20 game. I wouldn't mind trying d20 Modern or d20 Star Wars. I would like to try Exalted. I would like to try Vampire Dark Ages, or even a Vampire: Forgotten Realms! I have never played a super hero game, even though I had Marvel, DC, M&M, Champions and maybe a few others. Not having read comics in a while, this doesn't bother as much but I wanted to for many years, especially because I liked what I saw in the DC system.

What I have is some very open players who tried a system that I really like, Alternity, and we have all enjoyed it immensely. (I think being out of print has helped because we aren't bogged down with lots of rules and do need to make our own rules to handle some cases but we keep them as simple as we can.) I am very lucky in this. Alternity, at its core, fits my style. I still have house rules but have not yet altered core Alternity by much. (I created my own spell system but since Alternity was not written for fantasy, I was going to have to do *something* for that aspect of my games.) Otherwise, I have changed Alternity very little, and all within the rules, and it fits what I want it to do. (For example, I got inspired by the Buffy game and instead of calling them Last Resort Points, as they are called in Alternity, I call them Drama points and I allow more of these than they normally get of Last Resort Points. IMO, that is one of the small changes that I have made.) I have modified what is there instead of adding in new sub systems, except as I said before where I have to because Alternity wasn't written for Fantasy.

Anyway, I hope this explains where I am coming from in all of this, which is all I am interested in doing. I think d20 works and can work. I think there are some good d20 games out there. I also think there are some good variations out there, including AU and UA, and would like to try them as well. (Re: Time available above! ) Like others, I like variety and I don't think one game system can handle everything. I think that we all tend to choose the game system that fits our style the best and stick with it for most of the time. That's what I have done and it has worked well for me.

I also still buy *any* RPG book that I think will be useful to me in my own game. d20 or not, doesn't matter to me. I have gotten a lot of use out of Magical Medieval Society (I haven't read their second book yet but I have high hopes I can use it as well.) and it is a d20 book. Similarly, I have gotten a lot of use out of World Builder's Guidebook, a d20 (and LA?) book. I like Living Fantasy and Book of Names and I am sure it will help me but I have some issues with the writing of those books. I haven't gotten as much use out of Toolbox, which I thought I could use but it used d20 too much. I found it to have good ideas and if I was playing d20, I could use it. (etc. I don't need to detail out each d20 book I have and what I use. I merely wanted to show that d20 books are still useful to me. I do look at them and sometimes even buy them, if I think they will help in my own game, d20 or not.)

edg, who is located in the Des Moines area for the person who asked.

 

[jessemock]

Other systems aren't needed. d20 isn't needed. RPGs are a luxury item.

d20 is quite desired, though, as are many other systems. Good thing 3e's getting me back ino the hobby has me buying both.

Actually, other systems may well be needed. Why? Not because RPGs are not a luxury item, but in order to achieve a specific gaming goal. It's possible that x mechanic, which d20 doesn't provide, may be needed to produce effect y. Needed, I say.

This is perfectly clear in my statement; nothing else is implied.

You're trying to take advantage of an ellipsis, in order to sneak in an interpretation that would place you at an advantage. Unfortunately, you've done this with neither skill nor charm.

You really have no rhetorical kung fu whatsoever.

Back to the issue: why all the gibber-jabber over gameshop anecdotes and rumours of sales? Can y'all get brief on this one?

 

[hong]

(people who left and came back with 3E)

Congrats, now you know one.

I'm another, and there's plenty more on rgfd.

 

[Wombat]

Okay, in my gaming group we have the following individuals:

Myself -- stopped playing D&D back in 1980/8, didn't come back to D&D (except for a couple of one-shots) until 3e. Played many other rpgs over the years, especially RuneQuest and Ars Magica. Now GMing D&D 3.wombat, mainly because I like being a GM and couldn't get enough local interest in other game systems (other than Rifts, which I do not enjoy).

Player One -- hasn't played ANY rpgs in five years. Used to play 1st ed AD&D. Also played Paranoia, Rifts, Champions, and GURPS, but with the gap at the end.

Player Two -- hasn't played ANY rpgs in 6-7 years. Used to play AD&D, 1st & 2nd ed. Also played Aftermath, Cyberpunk, and Traveller.

Player Three -- Pure D&D junky. Has never stopped playing. Played Basic, 1st AD&D, 2nd AD&D, 3.0, 3.5. Currently in four games...

Player Four -- Until this game, only played WoD

Player Five -- Until this game, only played WoD

New Player -- hasn't played ANY rpgs in 2 years. Played "dozens of games", including on-line (both text and EQ). Played D&D "briefly", but doesn't really remember which version.

So, there is my local line up

 

[buzz]

It's possible that x mechanic, which d20 doesn't provide, may be needed to produce effect y. Needed, I say.

Desired, I say.

This is perfectly clear in my statement; nothing else is implied.

Well, we were talking about diversity in the market. I'm making a point about "need" vs. "want" because I think talking about "need" in reference to a luxury item ascribes a certain level of import that just isn't warranted. The RPG hobby doesn't "need'" anything because it's wholly unnecesary; it's just a fun thing we like to do.

As for d20 somehow precluding the existence of other RPGs with mechanics that may do a better job of achieving the effect you want, existing evidence points to the contrary. Even if you restrict yourself to d20 and OGL products, one of the consistent selling points highlighted in different products is how Game X does "what d20/D&D can't do" w/r/t some specific mechanic. E.g., the HP-less damage system from M&M, the "gritty" combat of Conan, and, heck, everything in Unearthed Arcana.

And if you don't limit yourself to d20 and OGL products, well, the vast amount of other RPGs available to us has already been pointed out in this thread.

You're trying to take advantage of an ellipsis, in order to sneak in an interpretation that would place you at an advantage.

I was making a point. I didn't realize this was a competition.

Unfortunately, you've done this with neither skill nor charm.

You really have no rhetorical kung fu whatsoever.

I'll say again (more directly this time): you really need to calm down before the mods get their big sticks out, IYKWIMAITYD.

 

[buzz]

I'm another, and there's plenty more on rgfd.

Ditto, and so are about 4-5 other poeple in my groups.

 

[woodelf]

Congrats, now you know one.

You (and others) misunderstood me. That's why i specifically said "personally" known--i'm talking about gamers that i've actually gamed with, or, at furthest, know as acquaintances and who've gamed with a friend of mine--a total sample size of probably 50-60. I'm not challenging the existence of gamers brought back to the fold by D&D3E, or at least at the same time as D&D3E--sales numbers alone prove that point. I was merely explaining that my POV may seem somewhat alien to the rest of you because that phenomenon is alien to me--i've never encountered it. This doesn't make me question its existence [though i might question it's magnitude], but it does mean that perhapse the gamers i've known are in some way a skewed sample.

I didn't mean to bring the issue of lapsed gamers and growing the market and all that into the discussion at all--sorry. I was just trying to better explain my POV.