quindia
First Post
Sulimo, you can get a lot of the old MSH stuff in PDF form from here:
http://www.rabunda.com/~super/dir.php?loc=resources/rules/index.php
http://www.rabunda.com/~super/dir.php?loc=resources/rules/index.php
D20 Marvel
- Thread starter victordoom
- Start date
Margaiaman
First Post
Cwylric said:
Actually you were spot on. Yes, the save progressions look very odd to my eye. I'm only familiar with three types, a 'good' save (2+1/2 level round down), a 'poor' save (0+1/3 level round down), and an 'ok' save (which follows something a little more complexe. +1 +2 +2 +2 +3 +3 +4 +4 +4 +5 +5 +6 +6 +6 +7 +7 +8 +8 +8 +9) (The 'ok' progression I have only seen in the Wheel of Time book from Wizard's of the Coast)
Those three I am familiar with and make sense to me. However, in Paragon I have found many of the classes don't seem to follow these three save progression patterns. Since you mention the warrior I'll look to it as an example.
Only the warrior's will save can fit in one of the three above categories. Its fortitude save is a variation of the good save, and I'm not sure how the reflex save came about.
As I mentioned in my post and you have answered in yours, I'm sure there are reasons like balance and what not. It just took me aback that the progressions were so different from those in any published book that I have seen. (I haven't yet looked at Spycraft, are there really some so different in that book?)
I'm certainly not saying that I dislike the save progressions you have placed in the classes. I just found it odd that they were in that fashion given what I have seen in published works. All of my doubts will melt away in actual play I am sure.
Unfortunatly I don't know if I'll ever be able to play the game. So until then I'll look it over and keep dreaming about all the heroes I could be playing, or the stories I could run with this system.
quindia
First Post
Cwylric's posted the d20 Paragon/Marvel Super Heroes conversion notes as promised and you can get them here:
http://www.rpghoard.com/cgi-bin/arcdb.cgi?cat=15&sec=9
http://www.rpghoard.com/cgi-bin/arcdb.cgi?cat=15&sec=9
Phew! I can't seem to stay a step ahead of quindia! Every time I go to post something here, I see that he has beaten me to the punch. I was going to mention that the MSH conversion notes are done, but it looks like I'm too late.
Ah, but wait! I can do him one better! I'm going to attach the zipped up .doc version to this note, so you can grab it directly from here. If you want the .pdf version, though, you will have to pop over to RPG Hoard (it's just too big, even zipped).
Anyway, I was going to reply to Wikidogres armor-related comments but quindia dealt with that, to some degree, as well. As he pointed out, in Paragon, most forms of armor grant both AC and DR bonuses. AC is used when the armor is designed to actually deflect the attack (e.g. reflec armor bouncing lasers). DR is used when the armor sucks up the damage. Kevlar, for example, does both: it grants a small AC deflection bonus, but, if you get hit, it absorbs some of the damage, as well.
Powers are much the same. Some grant AC, some grant DR, and some do both (e.g. Force Fields) -- and for the same reasons.
To be honest, I had originally planned to just scrap the AC bonus and work strictly with DR, taking the approach that many other d20 games took. It just didn't feel right for some types of armor and for many powers, though, and it also would have fouled up the PHB compatability that I was striving for. So, in the end, I stuck to this middle-of-the-road approach.
Ah, but wait! I can do him one better! I'm going to attach the zipped up .doc version to this note, so you can grab it directly from here. If you want the .pdf version, though, you will have to pop over to RPG Hoard (it's just too big, even zipped).
Anyway, I was going to reply to Wikidogres armor-related comments but quindia dealt with that, to some degree, as well. As he pointed out, in Paragon, most forms of armor grant both AC and DR bonuses. AC is used when the armor is designed to actually deflect the attack (e.g. reflec armor bouncing lasers). DR is used when the armor sucks up the damage. Kevlar, for example, does both: it grants a small AC deflection bonus, but, if you get hit, it absorbs some of the damage, as well.
Powers are much the same. Some grant AC, some grant DR, and some do both (e.g. Force Fields) -- and for the same reasons.
To be honest, I had originally planned to just scrap the AC bonus and work strictly with DR, taking the approach that many other d20 games took. It just didn't feel right for some types of armor and for many powers, though, and it also would have fouled up the PHB compatability that I was striving for. So, in the end, I stuck to this middle-of-the-road approach.
EarthsShadow
First Post
vp/wp & defense
I have downloaded and actually played the game one time as it stands with hit point rules and armor class using armor, and I can say that myself and my players love the powers, the races, and most of the classes, we disliked using regular hit points and armor class with such a flashy and combat intensive game as Paragon d20.
So, we modified it to fit vitality and wound points and defense as used in star wars and gave each class defense increases and changed armor like this: we split up the total armor class into a defense modifier and also damage reduction, but only against certain kinetic attacks. In other words, if a power was used that has armor piercing attacks or something like that, then the armor damage reduction would not negate some of the armor. We played it like this once with fifth level heroes to see how it worked, and overall it did have a much better feel to the game.
You might want to consider this as feedback from a person who ran the game two different ways to see how it worked.
Overall, the game rocks!
If you want, i can give you more feedback on a later date, but I did want to mention this to you.
I have downloaded and actually played the game one time as it stands with hit point rules and armor class using armor, and I can say that myself and my players love the powers, the races, and most of the classes, we disliked using regular hit points and armor class with such a flashy and combat intensive game as Paragon d20.
So, we modified it to fit vitality and wound points and defense as used in star wars and gave each class defense increases and changed armor like this: we split up the total armor class into a defense modifier and also damage reduction, but only against certain kinetic attacks. In other words, if a power was used that has armor piercing attacks or something like that, then the armor damage reduction would not negate some of the armor. We played it like this once with fifth level heroes to see how it worked, and overall it did have a much better feel to the game.
You might want to consider this as feedback from a person who ran the game two different ways to see how it worked.
Overall, the game rocks!
If you want, i can give you more feedback on a later date, but I did want to mention this to you.
Well, I ended up doing a second part to the MSH conversion rules, and I'll post the article here, as well. The system lets you create brand new MSH-strength characters in Paragon, either to use with ones that have been converted from MSH or simply to run in some other sort of high-powered campaign. I make no promises about the balance and whether the resulting characters will work well under the normal Paragon rules -- some of the changes are pretty extreme. In general, though, I think everything will be fine, as long as DMs remember that the resulting characters have a CR at least 2 points higher than usual. Or, to look at it in Paragon terms, non-supers should have their effective CRs reduced by two steps (e.g. from 1/4 to 1/8, or from 1/3 to 1/6, for example).
Just remember, before making any complaints about the balance, etc.: I did this just for fun and have no intention of making it an integral part of Paragon or providing any sort of long-term support for it. Character's made using it will *not* be eligible for publication in Vancouver: 2020.
Having said this, I've made a few characters with it, and it's kind of fun. Sometimes random is a good thing.
Just remember, before making any complaints about the balance, etc.: I did this just for fun and have no intention of making it an integral part of Paragon or providing any sort of long-term support for it. Character's made using it will *not* be eligible for publication in Vancouver: 2020.
Having said this, I've made a few characters with it, and it's kind of fun. Sometimes random is a good thing.
Earthshadow: Glad you enjoyed playing with the system. It's nice to know that people out there are actually playing it and not just talking about it. 
Regarding, the Vitality/Wound thing: This idea has come up many times before, so I'll just give you the standard reply. Paragon is a D&D supplement, not a generic d20 one, and has been designed to require only the PHB. Thus, it uses hp for compatability reasons. As you discovered, it is easy enough to add Vitality/Wounds, if you want to go that route, anyway, since Vitality = hp and Wounds = Constitution.
Having said this, I am probably going to include some custom variation on the Vitality/Wound system in a future version, since a lot of people like it; however, it will never be more than an optional rule, again for compatability reasons. This has become even more of an issue now that it looks like WotC may be going back to hp, themselves, in future d20 stuff.
Regarding the Armor Class/Defense thing: Actually, I won't say much about this, because I just did -- see my reply to Wikidogre, in the post just before yours. Again, Defense was avoided to preserve compatability and because, quite frankly, it doesn't always work that well, anyway (it often feels rather arbitrary). It isn't really needed in Paragon, anyway, because of the numerous defensive feats and Powers, not to mention the vastly more realistic and practical Active Defense rules (which allow you to decide how much emphasis you want to put on defense at any given time, rather than just having an arbitrary class bonus). Also, having tried out three methods over many, many sessions -- AC, DR, and mixed AC/DR -- the last seemed to work the best, by far.
Regarding, the Vitality/Wound thing: This idea has come up many times before, so I'll just give you the standard reply. Paragon is a D&D supplement, not a generic d20 one, and has been designed to require only the PHB. Thus, it uses hp for compatability reasons. As you discovered, it is easy enough to add Vitality/Wounds, if you want to go that route, anyway, since Vitality = hp and Wounds = Constitution.
Having said this, I am probably going to include some custom variation on the Vitality/Wound system in a future version, since a lot of people like it; however, it will never be more than an optional rule, again for compatability reasons. This has become even more of an issue now that it looks like WotC may be going back to hp, themselves, in future d20 stuff.
Regarding the Armor Class/Defense thing: Actually, I won't say much about this, because I just did -- see my reply to Wikidogre, in the post just before yours. Again, Defense was avoided to preserve compatability and because, quite frankly, it doesn't always work that well, anyway (it often feels rather arbitrary). It isn't really needed in Paragon, anyway, because of the numerous defensive feats and Powers, not to mention the vastly more realistic and practical Active Defense rules (which allow you to decide how much emphasis you want to put on defense at any given time, rather than just having an arbitrary class bonus). Also, having tried out three methods over many, many sessions -- AC, DR, and mixed AC/DR -- the last seemed to work the best, by far.
quindia
First Post
I've just discovered a great upside to Paragon... maybe Cwylric, in all his wisdom, planned this - but I'll pretend I figured it out just the same...
Three of the classes in Paragon (the Martial Artist, the Rogue, and the Sorcerer) come straight from the PHB. Mighty efforts were made to ensure the new classes balanced with those. This means that you should be able to use any D&D compatible material in your Paragon games! I've added a Psychic Warrior from the Psionic Handbook to my game and one of my NPC's has a few levels of Assassin.
So far so good...
Three of the classes in Paragon (the Martial Artist, the Rogue, and the Sorcerer) come straight from the PHB. Mighty efforts were made to ensure the new classes balanced with those. This means that you should be able to use any D&D compatible material in your Paragon games! I've added a Psychic Warrior from the Psionic Handbook to my game and one of my NPC's has a few levels of Assassin.
So far so good...
Well, I do have my moments, now and then... 
Actually, the class compatability thing was something I was shooting for, right from the beginning. To be honest, I was mainly concerned about prestige classes, but the fact that normal classes from other games also work is an added bonus.
For my part, I have started mixing Paragon and Spycraft, and I am quite pleased with the results, so far. If you're interested in this mix, check out the Paragon blog for lots more info:
http://cwylric.diaryland.com/
Actually, the class compatability thing was something I was shooting for, right from the beginning. To be honest, I was mainly concerned about prestige classes, but the fact that normal classes from other games also work is an added bonus.
For my part, I have started mixing Paragon and Spycraft, and I am quite pleased with the results, so far. If you're interested in this mix, check out the Paragon blog for lots more info:
http://cwylric.diaryland.com/
Wikidogre
First Post
As of last night, after my venture to Origins (Good Times), i was able to GM a great adventure using the rules, and lemme tell you it went nice and smooth. i really dont think that any other company is going to be able to compete. the play was smooth, and the powers where much the same. great job again.
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