d20 Modern and Spycraft

[Thorin Stoutfoot]

Now that is some good comedy.

You have not read d20 modern (just the SRD), yet you call it dull, in comparison to Spycraft, which I assume you actually read (even the non-rules bits, you know, the parts that make it non-dull).

Did you really think the recitation of out of context rules was going to be exciting? Or do you think maybe you should READ THE BOOK before you judge it?

Put another way, do you think Spycraft, if just an SRD without its context or flavor text, would be as attractive a game on first read?

Sorry, I just think your bias is showing. My guess is that you don't much like WOTC any more (if you ever did), and went in with the attitude that d20 Modern was probably going to be crap.

Sh! He works for AEG/Spycraft. What do you expect? Don't expect a publisher not to Shill for his own product.

Mort, I like what I've seen of Spycraft, but the WP/VP really ticks me off. d20 modern's HP/Mass system works better for me.

 

[Crothian]

Sh! He works for AEG/Spycraft. What do you expect? Don't expect a publisher not to Shill for his own product.

Really? He really should have said something then.

 

[Mortaneus]

Huh? Work for AEG? Who?

I wish....


BTW, I've since picked up d20 modern, read it all the way through, and my original assessment stands.

I'm simply just not at all impressed by d20 modern. It's just a compilation of stuff that already existed, plus a few modifications here and there. Take a look at the acolyte, and the mystic. Then compare them to the first 10 levels of wizard and cleric. How is any of this new?

I had the same reaction to it that I did Song & Silence. Well done, but bland. Spycraft just screams flavor by comparison.

That isn't to say the book is worthless. The wealth system, as I've already said, is interesting, though a bit prone to abuse (see other threads).

Personally, though, I think the one thing in the book that really stands out for me is the Allegiance system. I'm planning on ditching alignment and using it from here on out in all of my D&D games. If a class requires a given alignment, then I simply say that you have to have that moral/ethical trait as one of your allegiances. The system is SO much better than the standard 9.

 

[Crothian]

Well, the PHB is extremely bland as well. Most core books are, there are too many rules to cover to get into individual flavor.

I think the wealth system will be good. Sure, it can be abused byt that falls under the DM's job to stop that. Most things can be abused, so nothing new there. The Allegience system is interesting, I don't know who well it will work though. It's the one part I'm not sure about.

 

[Morgenstern]

Sh! He works for AEG/Spycraft. What do you expect? Don't expect a publisher not to Shill for his own product.

Are you thinking of me maybe ? 'Mortaneus' and 'Morganstern' could be easily confused.

Mort, I like what I've seen of Spycraft, but the WP/VP really ticks me off. d20 modern's HP/Mass system works better for me.

Spycraft has a massive damage rule, but it's the same as D&D . Going with WP/VP made more sense to us in a game that's going to involve (lots of) guns.

The d20 Modern book is very pretty, but I'm honestly a little confused by some of the design choices. If a gun is doing 2d6 or 2d8 damage (for example) and I have the burst fire feat, which adds another 2d6 or 2d8 to the damage inflicted, I'm guessing the massive damage save is going to be comming up an awful lot in combat...? Average damage from 4d6 (~14) is going to force most people to start checking for instant incapacitation (-1 hp), and 4d8 (~18) is going to put just about everyone at risk of keeling over on the first shot. That doesn't sound very practical to me for a setting like Agent's of Psi or some other setting in which a 10th level character has an expectation of being somewhat cinematic in scope.

I'm sure people who have both will find things about each that they want to combine for their home games. That's sort of the point with d20 systems .

 

[Ysgarran]

I want to run a campaign loosely based on the "Dark Angel" series. It is very similiar to the setting described in this months Polyhedron; the GeneTech setting.

Which d20 system would be better suited? Paging through the d20 Modern it seemed to have a lot of extra material that I just don't care about for the kind of 'realistic' setting I'm looking at. I want the system to be much more dangerous than your normal 'high' adventure kind of setting. As the Polyhedron put it: "More 'Jack Ryan' than 'Rambo' ". Another way of putting it would be that the characters should use gun combat as a last resort due to its dangerous nature rather than a first option.

Since I'm mentioning this what about looking at "The End" by Tyranny Games?

I would actually go with "Alternity" if the players in my campaign weren't so inherently conservative that they automatically turn there nose up at anything that isn't D&D. I'm hoping that anything d20 based will be similiar enough that they will give it a try.

So back to the original question, is one of the d20 systems better suited for the campaign I'm looking at?

 

[Ranger REG]

-- Vehicle combat ... arrr. For a chase, Spycraft wins hands down; who the devil wants to sketch out exactly the intersections and off ramps on a battle map for the character-style vehicle rules of D20Modern? On the other hand, for tactical, multi-vehicle free-for alls, the nod must go to d20Modern. Someday I'll get that system blend done, throwing in the excellent Dragonstar rules (and ayone wanting to run a futristic campaign should look at the two new equipment books for Star Wars and Dragonstar, both great ...).

Too bad you can't have both in one rulebook, even I owned both of them. I did expressed wanting an abstract chase rule for d20 Modern in addition to the tactical grid-based rule, but they already crammed so much into that $40 hardcover book.

Personally, I could asked for more pages (about 440) and buy said book for $45. (Hey, I did purchased T20: The Traveller's Handbook, complete with Prior History OGC.)

For budget-minded gamer, you have to pick one or the other. I you want espionage, go for Spycraft. It's tailor-made for that genre. If you want a more generic core rules (in the same group as GURP or FUDGE) and possibly pick up a d20 Modern compatible product like cyberpunk genre Digital Burn (to be published by Living Room Games), go for d20 Modern.

 

[Mistwell]

For budget-minded gamer, you have to pick one or the other. I you want espionage, go for Spycraft. It's tailor-made for that genre. If you want a more generic core rules (in the same group as GURP or FUDGE) and possibly pick up a d20 Modern compatible product like cyberpunk genre Digital Burn (to be published by Living Room Games), go for d20 Modern.

Actually, I think d20M does espionage quite well, and plan on using it for that.

SpyCraft has one fatal flaw - it is not SRD [Edit Note - By this I mean the name Spycraft, not the rules themselves. See later post for more details, before replying], and there is no [Edit Note: add word OPEN] license for it. To me, this makes it no better than Gurps (worse even, since it doesn't have the long history of GURPS). I want a product that has at least the potential of long term support from many sources - SpyCraft by definition cannot have that. d20M already has some of it, and will likely have a lot more if sales are decent. To me, that means ultimately d20M will win out even in the espionage genre, eventually.

It's like comparing BetaMax to VHS taping (or Ataria and Commodore versus IBM-compatible). Even if Spycraft/BetaMax/Commodore/Atari is the better product, in the end d20M/VHS/IBM-Compatible will win out. Because if it is a closed standard, it is inevitably a closed market.

 

[Piratecat]

Just ran a pulp 40's Spycraft game last night.

Oh, be still my heart. This is the only time I've ever heard a convincing reason for why I'd want to move to LA.

 

[jonrog1]

Yes, if I didn't have three Christmas deadlines rushing in at me, I'd write it up in Story Hour, helluva time. A bunch of the D20 Dark*Matter players.

Denis was Furio, the hitter on loan from Lucky Luciano who acted as Captain Texas' driver. Yeah, you read that right. What, you think they didn't run through a couple super-soldier trial formulas before they hit Captain America? Ross played, with great relish, Captain Texas.

And our one and only Johanna was Nadia Tesla, Nicolai Tesla's 19 year old borderline sociopathic daughter who'd been tossed out of every private girl's school in Europe. They had to figure out who was stealing the brains from Scientists in mid-Blitz London.

Yes, the actual brains.

Furio ran UP the banister of a staircase outside a brownstone, smashed through the window twin .45's blazing. Captain Texas smacked people with his Texas-shaped shield, calling out the towns he was hitting them with -- "Say hello to Laredo!" He also did a Bourne Identity ride-the-guy-down-the-center-of-the-staircase fall. And little Nadia -- so good with the monofilament charm-bracelet garotte and flash-bang gumdrops.

Andy couldn't make it, or he would have been the King's Man, Agent 001 ...