d20 Modern or Spycraft?

[Sagan Darkside]

So, in that sense, the lethality of Spycraft is largely in the hands of the GM, but I just happen to like mine on the high side.

I use to save them to have guns explode, but since they started carrying more then one gun on them now.. I am leaning towards more criticals.

SD

 

[Outlaw]

Spycraft

I own both books, but I don't plan on using d20 Modern. If I'm going to play in a modern setting, I'm either going to play Vampire or I'm going to play a Spy game, so Spycraft is exactly what I want.

 

[d20Dwarf]

I'll echo what some of the other posters have said, that if you want a spy game, Spycraft is the way to go. It's a balls to the wall action-oriented game with all the style of a Bond movie rolled into a xXx action scene.

d20Modern is a fine modern adaptation of the d20 rules, but it's too Buffy for me to use in any capacity other than a self-referential, modern day angst fest.

 

[Hopping Vampire]

the designers of these games really know nothing of ballistics though. the autofire rules suck in both cases

 

[Apok]

the designers of these games really know nothing of ballistics though. the autofire rules suck in both cases

Eh. I have yet to find a game system that has good autofire rules. The ones for Modern & Spycraft work well enough for me.

 

[d20Dwarf]

the designers of these games really know nothing of ballistics though. the autofire rules suck in both cases

It might be that real world ballistics make for sucky game play! Game designers don't have to report things as they are, they should create a fun environment in which to play.

It reminds me of a conversation I had yesterday. I'm running a Middle Earth d20 one shot tomorrow to celebrate Tolkien's one hundred and eleventieth birthday, and my friend complained that a proposed dungeon crawl wasn't "flavorful or in the spirit of Tolkien." Despite the obvious hack n' slash elements of the books he's ignoring (willfully), I told him I'd change it if he really wanted to role play a 6 month long walk through Middle Earth in which I faithfully described its flora, fauna, and inhabitants. I think he finally relented that it would be more fun to hunt a dragon.

 

[Corinth]

I must protest the characterization of the Massive Damage check not being a problem past the first couple of levels. First, it's still a Fortitude Saving Throw which means that a natural 1 still results in automatic failure. Second, higher level characters will often get smacked for enough damage to compel Massive Damage checks; this increase in randomness means that the chance of that die rolling that natural 1 goes up a great deal. Force enough saving throws, and failure becomes inevitable. This isn't hard to do; use lots of well-armed mooks.

 

[Apok]

I must protest the characterization of the Massive Damage check not being a problem past the first couple of levels. First, it's still a Fortitude Saving Throw which means that a natural 1 still results in automatic failure. Second, higher level characters will often get smacked for enough damage to compel Massive Damage checks; this increase in randomness means that the chance of that die rolling that natural 1 goes up a great deal. Force enough saving throws, and failure becomes inevitable. This isn't hard to do; use lots of well-armed mooks.

Actually, I never said it wasn't a problem past the first couple of levels. I said it would be much less of a problem at higher levels (mid to high teens). Yeah, a 1 is always a failure. So, each time you suffer an ammount of damage greater than your Con you have a 5% chance of getting dropped to -1 HP's. Fortunately, your brave compatriots actually care about your survival so they will attempt to stabilize you (a non-issue at those levels) and drag you off the battlefield.

In Spycraft, a higher level agent is more likely to get critted with a high-powered weapon being wielded by a skilled user. We're talking 20 or more points of damage easily, which can knock your character out of the combat or kill him instantly if your Wound points are low enough. Two crits are an almost guaranteed death sentence.

I'm not saying that d20 Modern combat isn't lethal, just that it becomes less so at higher levels unless your characters are squaring off against a veritable army of heavily armed mooks. I am saying that, IMO, Spycraft is just as lethal and can maintain that level of lethality without resorting to ridiculous numbers of NPC's with machine guns at high levels of play.

 

[Corinth]

Actually, I never said it wasn't a problem past the first couple of levels. I said it would be much less of a problem at higher levels (mid to high teens). Yeah, a 1 is always a failure. So, each time you suffer an ammount of damage greater than your Con you have a 5% chance of getting dropped to -1 HP's. Fortunately, your brave compatriots actually care about your survival so they will attempt to stabilize you (a non-issue at those levels) and drag you off the battlefield.

This is a good thing. Death isn't necessary in battle; forcing the enemy to drop or flee is victory enough most of the time. That's what forcing the MD checks do. This isn't a slight against SC; SC does what it does because it's after a different simulation of reality by default than d20M.

In Spycraft, a higher level agent is more likely to get critted with a high-powered weapon being wielded by a skilled user. We're talking 20 or more points of damage easily, which can knock your character out of the combat or kill him instantly if your Wound points are low enough. Two crits are an almost guaranteed death sentence.

It's also wholly under the GM's control, because he must choose to confirm those threats or not when they appear. Not that I'm of any mind to argue this. Again, it is not my contention that SC is wrong; I contend nothing at all against SC. My post above is wholly concern with d20M.

I'm not saying that d20 Modern combat isn't lethal, just that it becomes less so at higher levels unless your characters are squaring off against a veritable army of heavily armed mooks. I am saying that, IMO, Spycraft is just as lethal and can maintain that level of lethality without resorting to ridiculous numbers of NPC's with machine guns at high levels of play.

It doesn't take armies of mooks with machine guns, not for d20M and not for SC. It takes the skillful construction, deployment and use of a properly-sized mook squad. It can be done in d20M with common civilian firearms, and with a mook group of platoon size or less, for all but the most extreme circumstances because of the way that the MD rules work. This is possible because of the way that MD checks work; most characters aren't going to have big MD thresholds.

SC works different due to the interplay between VP/WP, critical hits, action dice and NPC classifications. This is because it's not meant to simulate the same sort of action--by default--as d20M; to compare the two is not a wise course of action. What you're after to achieve the same result is different, and rightly so, than in (again, default) d20M game.

 

[Henry]

Moved to d20 systems games forum.