d20 Modern: Two weeks and counting

[Victim]

I don't like WP/VP. IMHO, it has almost all the problems of the normal HP system. For example, allow me to bore you with stories from a high level Spycraft game.

The big battle was against a martial artist attempting to assasinate some politician. He's got some lackeys there too. Two crappy characters shoot him with pistols while my Wheelman hijacks the enemy helocopter with his jetpack and the soldier gets out an assualt rifle. While the MA gets shot some more, I attempt to chop him with the rotor like in Tomorrow Never Dies - I succeed and do a bunch of damage. Our soldier fires some bursts into while he knocks out the weak characters. Next I crash the copter onto the enemy - I'm not paying for it . Another significant amount of damage dealt. The battle ends after the MA takes more rifle bursts and I nail him with a .50 caliber machine mounted on my tricked out car.

Using VP changes nothing about the amount of damage high level characters can take. All it does is automatically change the descriptive properties of damage, let characters heal without magic and make people fear critical hits and coup de grace type death types more. As long as the damage isn't against wounds, characters retain DnD levels of damage absorbtion. Sure, you can say that it's not actually taking damage because VP means it was a near miss. However, I can say the same thing about HP. And you still have same inconsistancies like Con increasing the amount of luck or dodging ability of the character, etc.

And as far making players act rationally because of the fear of crits, a crit from an average orc with his Great Axe can do up to 45 points of damage. That's probably enough to drop most 5th level character and kill most 3rd level ones. However, people still charge orcs all the time. People aren't scared of deadly crits unless they think it will happen. If it crits on a 20 and has a hard time hitting, nobody cares too much. It's not really until Imp. Crit or Keen start getting thrown on weapons that crits become an important factor in damage, or important in the perception of damage.

 

[Ryan Wynne]

Ok, I will be the one to say it

I am looking forward to d20 modern, I think that it is good stuff. Let's face it, d20 is a powerful force in gaming and D&D... Well what can you say about D&D that hasn't already been said?

 

[Lilandros]

Hey , do one of you guys have the book? I'd like to see some info to make a 1st level Tough Hero to prepare for an up coming campaign.

 

[Ruland]

The discussion about hp- and WP/VP-damage systems will probably remain forever - but as I think designers will always look for the preferences of us consumers I want to throw in my vote for the hp-system. You can make it as gritty as you like by adjusting the massive damage threshold (as has been done in d20 modern and d20-CoC).

 

[Ranger REG]

Personally, I like the idea of having a variety of health/damage systems to determine which is appropriate for your own game, from epic D&D HP to gritty CoC HP and everything in between (e.g., VP/WP and d20Mod HP).

As for d20 Modern use of HP (albeit a different version) allow easy import from other d20 product that utilizes the D&D HP system with minimal or no tweak. Trying to convert undead to VP/WP do require at least a minimal tweak (undead do not have Con score, therefore no WP to begin with).

I don't know who will win out in the end when we started to filter out the useless rules mechanics from the useful mechanics for the d20 System, but I would like it if the four health/damage system to be around for a long while.

 

[Geocorona]

Semantics

What exactly happens when damage is inflicted in any game is all in the presentation. I've always played D&D such that "luck" or "fate" made up a majority of high-level hit points.

There's no way to justify any human, no matter how tough, being able to withstand more physical punishment than an elephant. Obviously, the guy who took 70 hit pts. damage and walked away was lucky.

None of these semantics changed the mechanics of the game.

 

[mtgrogan]

No way to justify?

Well, I think in a world where magic is common place, people walk around with the blood of dragons and can take prestige classes to become half-dragons, and some people can shape change into animals at will, the statement that there is no way to justify how a human can take more damage than an elephant is somewhat ludicrous. I can think of novels where sorcerors are harder to kill than an entire herd of elephants. When there is epic level magic in the picture, I think the infusion of magic makes it easy to justify humans of any power level, whether the magic is inherent or practiced. Just another view. I did see spells in the d20 modern web enhancement; so I think this view is just as valid in that game system.

 

[Geocorona]

Not all D&D classes are magical, so magic can't be the justification for it, either.

You seem to think I'm saying it's all ridiculous. That's not it. I like a good ridiculous game, and don't demand realism from my entertainment.

What I'm saying is, however you want to explain the way damage infliction and protection from damage works is just fine. The mechanics are just data formulas to balance and progress the game. You can interpret hit points as real physical buffness, improved bullet-dodging skill from experience, or as a subtle gift of luck from the gods (ie., the game master) for providing exciting entertainment. Your explanation that it's all magic is equally valid. It can all be done under the same mechanic, just talked about with the players in different ways. I don't think the D20 mechanic ruins any game. As always, the quality of the game rests on the quality of the game master, and his judgement on priorities.

My only problem with mechanics is when they get too cumbersome without adding anything positive to the experience. I don't think D20 levels and hit points are guilty of that as much as the piles of skill points, feats and combat modifiers that must be calculated and balanced in D20 with each level advancement. Some people get off on the mathematical details, and the more boggling the better. Ease vs. accuracy will always be a conflict at the gaming table. IMHO, the burden of D20 complexity takes creative time away from the game master, but it's not impossible to work with.

 

[Henry]

Re: Ok, I will be the one to say it

I am looking forward to d20 modern, I think that it is good stuff. Let's face it, d20 is a powerful force in gaming and D&D... Well what can you say about D&D that hasn't already been said?

Welcome, Ryan, Glad to see you here!

 

[Dragonblade]

I don't like the WP/VP system. It may be more "realistic" but I don't want realism.

I play RPG's so I can be a kickass hero just like in the movies! No crit takes Arnold down in Terminator! Or Stallone down in Rocky!
No sir, it was lots of damage coming off lots of HP and thats the way I like it!

I don't think the Hero should be in danger of death in the first round of combat just because the bad guy rolls a crit. Talk about anti-climactic! Hero's are cool because they kick butt and survive horrible damage not because they succumb to it.

If you don't like the idea of someone surviving getting hit by a machine gun and walking away with nary a scratch, then just interpret HP as near misses.

Like someone said before, both HP and WP/VP are an abstract system of tracking damage that moves the game forward. But HP encourages heroism and daring far more than WP/VP does and thats why I prefer it.