d20 modern will save?

[Zen]

How important is a will save in a no-magic D20 modern/future campaign? In the absence of spells, psionics and so forth, when is a will save called for?

--Z

 

[Aussiegamer]

Never thought about it, but a good point.

Maybe some mind affecting drugs???

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

One of those things that's there if you need it. Wisdom, primarily, controls some of the more important "Modern" skills, like Treat Injury, and they used it to control Advanced Firearms Prof.

You could, in a modern game of gunbunnies and no investigation, probably get away with tanking wisdom and not noticing it in failed Will saves.

I will say that I like that you get advancement in the save ANYWAY, just in case you DO use FX. I remember playing Alternity, where everything was a skill, including the cognate to d20's Will save. Not taking ranks in the skill was fine, never noticed it, right up until something that called for that roll came up and everybody went: "oh ... crap". D20M, you end up with some minimum proficiency with all of the saves as time goes on.

--fje

 

[Roudi]

Whenever the Gamemaster feels particularly cruel

Seriously, there are quite a few stressful combat situations that a GM could use to require a Will save. Panicking during a character's first firefight, avoiding addiction, fending off a conditioned response (on a side note, brainwashed PCs make for some interesting fun)... any situation you can imagine where the character's only means of resistance is his or her force of Will.

 

[takyris]

The key is to pick your metaphors. The Will save can always be useful in a game that makes it useful.

If you're in a no-magic game, I could see Will saves for:

- Someone who has failed aa level check against an Intimidate and is being coerced to do something he doesn't want to do (breaking the "PCs can't be intimidated" rule because this is a world without Charm spells, so yes, they can be manipulated nonmagically).
- Someone who has failed a Sense Motive check and is going to do something that the player knows is stupid (like being Bluffed into attacking the bad guy on his home turf).
- Someone who is being bombarded by something in an attempt to break his will (ie, loud music during a hostage scenario, graphic murder-victim photos to shake a suspect into admitting his guilt).
- Someone under the effect of mind-altering drugs (including someone who is just drunk) trying to control themselves, either to answer questions coherently or to not take a swing at their friends or whatever.

Again, in an FX game, magic or psionics or cybernetic overrides make a lot of these unnecessary, as magic and psionics and such are often metaphors for real-world manipulation or obfuscation of people's minds. But in a non-FX game, that's how I'd use Will saves.

 

[Aussiegamer]

He said will save not low wisdom.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

He said will save not low wisdom.

In my mind "What good are Will saves in Modern if you don't use FX?" is followed close behind by "And so goeth Will, where Wisdom?"

Seemed topical.

--fje

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

The key is to pick your metaphors. The Will save can always be useful in a game that makes it useful.

If you're in a no-magic game, I could see Will saves for:

- Someone who has failed aa level check against an Intimidate and is being coerced to do something he doesn't want to do (breaking the "PCs can't be intimidated" rule because this is a world without Charm spells, so yes, they can be manipulated nonmagically).

No. I don't think there's any point to a Will save or Wisdom check or whatever. If they ignore the threat of the dozen intimidating hitmen, then they die (or live but are badly wounded, have to flee to the hospital, and can get killed there, too). If they ignore the threat to have damaging info posted about them, then they end up getting run out of town. If they ignore the threat to have unspecified things happen to them (eg a bomb in their car), then they get a bomb in their car. (There was a great threat at WotC about how much damage that does.) Intimidate isn't mind control.

- Someone who has failed a Sense Motive check and is going to do something that the player knows is stupid (like being Bluffed into attacking the bad guy on his home turf).

Bluff isn't mind control. If someone is tricked into attacking the bad guy on his home turf, they deserve whatever happens to them. Unless they've got Intuition, there's no need for game checks to hold their hand.

- Someone who is being bombarded by something in an attempt to break his will (ie, loud music during a hostage scenario, graphic murder-victim photos to shake a suspect into admitting his guilt).

This is a good one, I think... if you fail your Will save, you're shaken. (But not mind controlled.)

- Someone under the effect of mind-altering drugs (including someone who is just drunk) trying to control themselves, either to answer questions coherently or to not take a swing at their friends or whatever.

Heh. Yeah, if someone gets drunk, they're basically an NPC anyway.

I'd do the same thing for being hit by suppressive fire - Will save to avoid being shaken (which affects your ability to shoot, half of the point of suppressive fire). But I don't think non-FX mind control is fair.

 

[Prest0]

To resist the seduction attempt from an NPC.

 

[Roudi]

To resist the seduction attempt from an NPC.

Now there's a save I'm always happy to fail.