d20 Monster Full Attack Question

[Water Bob]

So, I've been converting a regular D&D adventure for use in my Conan game. There's a small Black Dragon in this (low level) adventure (which are easiest for converting to Conan), and I look at his attacks. It says...

Melee bite +9 (1d6+1) and
2 claws each +6 (1d4+1)

How do the dragon's attack work with a full action? He gets all three attacks, bit and both claws?

I'm guessing that the bite is what is used if the dragon can only use a standard attack?

I'm also assuming that use of the creature's breath weapon requires a Full Round action?

That's what common sense tells me, anyway. How is this handled under the d20 system? How many attacks should the dragon get if he can only attack with a full action?

 

[Empirate]

A creature with many natural attacks can make all of them on a full attack action (which requires a full round action). If the creature cannot make a full attack (because it has already moved, for example), it uses the natural attack listed first for its attack action (which requires a standard action).

Normally, one attack form is primary and uses the full base attack bonus. This attack form is also the one used for a single attack. Other attack forms are secondary, so they use a lowered attack bonus. Normally, the attack penalty for secondary attacks is -5, but your dragon seems to have the Multiattack feat, as well as Weapon Focus (bite).
Furthermore, secondary attacks usually use only half the creature's Str bonus for damage (rounded down9 - this seems to not be the case here?

From my calculations, your Very Young Black Dragon (I'm assuming that's the one) should have the following attack routine (using Multiattack and WF:bite as two of its feats):

bite +9 (1d6+1) and 2 claws +6 (1d4)

So if the dragon moved and attacked, it would be with its bite. If it took a full attack, it would make three attacks, one bite and two claws.


Another thing: breath weapons are a standard action to use unless specified otherwise.

 

[Water Bob]

Gotcha. I appreciate the reply. With the dragon, I should think of the two claws as an attack routine rather than two separate attacks. The standard attack is the bite, and the full attack is the bite + two claws.

The word "and" is what I'm looking for to separate the Standard and Full attacks. For example, the Giant Mantid (Conan RPG Beastiary) lists this (which is backwards from the dragon)...

Melee: 2 foreclaws +6 (1d6+2, AP 3) and bite +1 (1d8+1, AP 2)

That AP business is Conan Armor Piercing stats, so ignore it from a D&D perspective. But, the Standard attack in this case is the 2 foreclaws, and when the bug does a full attack, it's the 2 foreclaws followed by the bite.

That's correct, yes?







More Questions....

Assuming that is correct, let me ask one more question. I can't think of a situation where this might come up, but is there any order that needs to be respected on Full Attacks?

For example, let's say a PC is fighting with a spear in his main hand and a dirk in his off hand. And, for whatever reason, the player, when doing a Full Attack, wants to roll for the dirk attack first rather than with his character's main weapon.

Is that legal?





Here's another version of the same question (little different). Let's say the young Dragon mentioned above is doing a Standard attack. That should be its bite. Can the dragon substitute and use his 2 claws for a Standard attack, foregoing the bite?

 

[Empirate]

Even if the primary attack of a monster is one that can be used with two appendages (for example, two claw attacks are primary, and one bite is secondary), only one attack can be made as a standard action! To use both claw attacks, or rather: to use more than one attack EVER, the monster must make a full attack. Except if it's a cat-like predator with Pounce or something like that, but that's beside the point. Normally, if you have more than one attack, regardless of the source, you can only make one attack on a standard action or charge, and can only take more attacks on a full attack.

Your Giant Mantid is limited to one foreclaw attack when it charges or takes a standard action to attack. It can use two foreclaws and one bite if it makes a full attack.



If you have several different attacks, you can use them in whatever order you feel like if you make a full attack. I'd recommend using the order they're listed in in the stat block, though, to keep things simple.


The dragon from your former example could probably use one claw attack if it only takes a standard action to attack. But there's really no benefit at all: the claw attack still counts as secondary, so it takes an attack penalty. The dragon still only deals half Str (rounded down) bonus damage.

 

[the Jester]

Gotcha. I appreciate the reply. With the dragon, I should think of the two claws as an attack routine rather than two separate attacks. The standard attack is the bite, and the full attack is the bite + two claws.

The word "and" is what I'm looking for to separate the Standard and Full attacks. For example, the Giant Mantid (Conan RPG Beastiary) lists this (which is backwards from the dragon)...

Melee: 2 foreclaws +6 (1d6+2, AP 3) and bite +1 (1d8+1, AP 2)

That AP business is Conan Armor Piercing stats, so ignore it from a D&D perspective. But, the Standard attack in this case is the 2 foreclaws, and when the bug does a full attack, it's the 2 foreclaws followed by the bite.

That's correct, yes?

No, the dragon makes one bite attack at +9 and two separate claw attacks at +6, for a total of three attacks.

A monster with multiple claws that function as a single attack is written as e.g. "talons +5 melee (1d4-2)" (that's the full attack of the hawk, MM 3.5 pg 273; for contrast the eagle, on pg 272, has an attack listing of "talons" but a full attack listing of "2 talons".)

More Questions....

Assuming that is correct, let me ask one more question. I can't think of a situation where this might come up, but is there any order that needs to be respected on Full Attacks?

For example, let's say a PC is fighting with a spear in his main hand and a dirk in his off hand. And, for whatever reason, the player, when doing a Full Attack, wants to roll for the dirk attack first rather than with his character's main weapon.

Is that legal?

Primary attack is always first, then the following attacks in descending order, with iterative attacks.

I don't believe there is a specific rule for, for example, two-weapon fighting or natural weapons, other than the general iterative attack rule. So, yeah, I suppose dude could use his dirk first.

Here's another version of the same question (little different). Let's say the young Dragon mentioned above is doing a Standard attack. That should be its bite. Can the dragon substitute and use his 2 claws for a Standard attack, foregoing the bite?

He can use 1 claw, but still suffers the penalty.

 

[Water Bob]

Got it. Thanks to both of you.

The only thing that is still smoky is this...

He can use 1 claw, but still suffers the penalty.

The young dragon is--

Melee bite +9 (1d6+1) and 2 claws each +6 (1d4+1)

If only a Standard Action is possible because the dragon moves that round, then he's use his bite at +9 attack doing 1d6+1 damage.

But, let's say, for some reason, the dragon can't use his bite. Maybe the players have figured out a way to keep his maw closed for a few rounds. Maybe they somehow wrapped some chain around his snout, and the dragging is making check each round to break them--whatever.

If the dragon wants to use a diffent type of attack other than his bite, then he should be able to use one claw as his Standard Attack Action--that's what was said above.

Your quote above leads me to believe that the attack bonus is tied to the type of attack and not the order in which the attack is used.

Shouldn't the dragon, if he uses his claw for his Standard Attack, be: +9 claw with damage 1d4+1?



In other words, if the dragon decided to use his claw as the first attack of a Full Round action, it would look like this: +9 claw (1d4+1) and +6 bite (1d6+1) and +6 second claw (1d4+1).

Correct?

Or is there some ordering that is mandatory, akin to handedness with a human?

 

[Empirate]

A claw attack is described as a secondary natural attack, complete with the usual -5 penalty, in the SRD entry for True Dragon. That means this attack form always takes the penalty, regardless of whether the dragon can even make his primary attack.