D20 OGC Master Compilation.

[HellHound]

The more material released as OGC, the more you are contributing to the public pool of OGC that can be drawn from when creating other products.

For example, I could create new armor for a book such as Three Arrows for the King... but instead, I grabbed the Spaulders from Arms & Armor and added the magical enhancements I wanted for the item in question. This makes it so a collection of books, even by diverse authors and diverse companies are still inter-supported. Each book does not exist in a vaccuum.

I see it as giving something back.

We have been given the SRD to play with, why not use it to create more, adding to it instead of hiding it in your basement and clutching it to your chest whispering 'my precious' to it all night?

 

[The Sigil]

This question comes up about once every three months or so, and the discussion always seems to be about the same...

1.) Everyone acknowledges that it would be a massive undertaking (including the S15)... from both a logistical and a "bandwidth" perspective.

2.) The point is made that it would be a motherlode for the "cut-n-paster."

3.) Publishers fret that such a thing would cut into their sales, and will be reluctant to do it, even though it would obviously be useful to them to have access to others' OGC all in one place.

4.) Given point 3, The point is made that it would be more punitive to publishers who are liberal in their OGC delcarations than those who are conservative, leading everyone to "clam up" on their OGC declarations.

I will offer my solutions and thoughts in the next post...

--The Sigil

 

[The Sigil]

And now, my offer of a solution...

Here is my humble offering as a solution for the four points above...

1.) Everyone acknowledges that it would be a massive undertaking (including the S15)... from both a logistical and a "bandwidth" perspective.

I will take it! I will take the ring... though... I do not know the way...

I have done enough "prototyping" of a model that could include Section 15s through ASP includes in both the Netbook of Creatures and (hopefully soon-to-be-posted) a master spell list from the SRD that I know how to logistically handle it. I know just enough asp code to get it across on a webpage... it won't be pretty, but I can make it work. I will even offer to pay for a server from which the content will be served - though again, it will be simple, plain-textish to keep bandwidth costs low.

If I get enough support (see below), "I will take the ring," or, I will volunteer to do the "hard work" involved for the project. But I WILL need help bearing this burden - and I'll need it on certain conditions (see below).

And at some point, we know SOMEBODY's going to make an attempt. This peril belongs to all of the d20 Publishers. You will unite or you will fall.

2.) The point is made that it would be a motherlode for the "cut-n-paster."

True. There's nothing that can be done about that on its surface. But this is only an issue insomuch as it affects #3, IMO.

3.) Publishers fret that such a thing would cut into their sales, and will be reluctant to do it, even though it would obviously be useful to them to have access to others' OGC all in one place.

4.) Given point 3, The point is made that it would be more punitive to publishers who are liberal in their OGC delcarations than those who are conservative, leading everyone to "clam up" on their OGC declarations.

We need to balance the publisher's need for a return on their initial investment in a book with the desirability of an OGC databank. We also need to be careful with how we handle this so we don't drive everyone to "clam up" on their OGC declarations.

I am told that life cycles for products are very short in the d20 industry - on the order of a few months.

My proposal: Introduce content into the "OGC databank" 12 to 24 months after its initial release (it would probably products over 24 months old initially and might stay there for a good long while, since there would be a year's worth of products that are over 24 months old just to catch up on). The exact point in time can be discussed by publishers at large or even done on a case-by-case basis... but the general idea is that by the time 12 to 24 months rolls around, 90+% of sales on a product have been made, so there is no need to worry about cutting into income - there's not really much income left to cut into.

Help bearing my burden: I don't want to do an "end-around" around d20 companies. I also don't want to have to review every "submission" that somebody sends me to make sure they didn't mix non-OGC with OGC. I don't have time for that. This means that I would want to get an electronic copy of the OGC directly from the d20 company that published the work itself... with an OGL, OGC declaration ("everything in this document"), and proper S15.

If I get it directly from them, it mitigates the OGC concerns. Of course, that DOES put a bit of a burden on them to sift the OGC from the non-OGC. Solution? I'm even willing to try to extract the OGC myself and run it back for approval if I get a "full" electronic copy (basically a PDF of the product, including artwork) from a company (this is how companies that don't want to dedicate time to sifting the OGC can get around that problem). Print copy isn't practical, as that requires me to re-type everything (blah) - it would have to be electronic.

More on the help: I don't want to start this alone, or even with just a company or two. I'll throw the Enchiridion of Mystic Music in the hopper to get us started, but it won't be enough. Even if one or two companies decide to jump on board, it won't be enough. I will need most (not all) of the major OGC-producing players in the market - which in my mind includes (in no particular order) SSS/Malhavoc, Mystic Eye Games, Mongoose Publishing, FFG, AEG, Bastion Press, Green Ronin Publishing, E.N. Publishing, and (yes) Fast Forward Entertainment. I wouldn't need all of their support, but I would need at least a majority of them to support this or it really won't work. (Sorry if I missed anyone - it wasn't intentional - just going off the top of my head)

To return to the LotR analogy, I need Istari and Dunedain and men of Gondor and elves and dwarves and hobbits to make it work... I need a Fellowship of the d20 Publishers.

What's in it for me? I guess all the "electronic copies" of the OGC (and in those cases where I'm expected to extract it and run it by the companies, the "full product"). That's it... I won't ask for financial support (though I won't turn it away LOL) for the site or anything else. I think it would be a great contribution to the community.

So there you have it. There's my offer. If I can get a majority of d20 Publishers behind it, I'll do it. And on terms that I think are considerate (the 24-month-ish "waiting period" before something is added), given the utility such a work will offer. If not, I won't waste the energy.

So that puts the ball into the publishers' collective court... are any of the publishers out there willing to commit to supporting such a project? And do you have any suggestions for improving the plan I have laid out? Let's hear from you. The offer is on the table. Please don't ignore it (again).

--The Sigil

 

[Cergorach]

Sigil, some nice ideas in there, but...

Some thoughts:
I highly doubt that by putting the ball in the court of the D20 publishers you'll get far. Anything older than 2 years is done by either big companies or companies that are already out of business. Big companies have very little to gain by sharing their content with other publishers (it's often cheaper to come up with something new than to fin something that your looking for).

I also think that 24 months is a very long period, too long a period actually, i would say 6 months max. Also, some works such as the book by expeditious retreat are large, very large, and will clutter up the database.

Even when you go the way of plain text, it will still generate a lot of trafic, traffic costs money, money you will have to pay.

What stops people from copying your database and adding stuff that falls out of your rules and making it more usefull, thus killing your site?

I think the biggest problem is OCRing all the OGC text and making sure it's OGC only.

What to do with creatures that have IP names?

 

[Geist]

The thing with it being a PDF is it can also be afordably distributed on CD. This would allow for companies to pick it up and also cut down on the amount of non-companies getting their hands on it.

Also Personaly Id say it would be only available to companies who have actualy published materials that have been sold in established online stores or in regular game stores (be they pdf or otherwise) this would mean that its not someone making a fake company just to get some free stuff.

I never intended this to be on a website as this then does make it overly accessablew and abusable and would cut into sales.

As for a refrence to Look in this book for this info... well thats pretty much done by the EN world reviews page. the thing is for a company say wanting to make a book on ships... It does get a bit costly if they have to go pay a bunch of money and time sifting throught other ship books to see what has already been done.


I see OGC as being something that is meant to be free to use for other companies who like the ideas and feel it would incorporate well into whatever theyre putting together or to let them know its already been done. However since wotc is the only person to have put OGC materials online it really means you have to pay a bundle to gain access to OGC of a given book or series of books.

Its Hard to say if this would be good or bad but personaly If its kept within legitimately established d20 producing companies who arent going to go under in 2 days I think it would work fine. (no offense intended here to anyone)


The only other way i could see this being done is as sort of a personal database with no outside access, that is run sort of like a company. D20 companies could send a query for information on OGC info on a certain subject and be given the specific info theyre looking for.

 

[philreed]

OGC Collection

Would those contributing their OGC to the collection then purchase the CD?

I can see value in this I just want there to be a way to ensure my releases continue to sell. Since I'm releasing PDFs it would be an easy matter for someone who buys the collection to stop buying my PDFs. All it takes is one sale, the material added to the collection, and then no more PDFs sell.

 

[The Sigil]

Some thoughts:
I highly doubt that by putting the ball in the court of the D20 publishers you'll get far. Anything older than 2 years is done by either big companies or companies that are already out of business. Big companies have very little to gain by sharing their content with other publishers (it's often cheaper to come up with something new than to fin something that your looking for).

The point of the OGL was to "cross-pollenate" the d20 pool - and I wouldn't put everything in one BIG file on the website. I'm not that stupid. (More on my vision of structure for the site in a moment)

I also think that 24 months is a very long period, too long a period actually, i would say 6 months max. Also, some works such as the book by expeditious retreat are large, very large, and will clutter up the database.

Well, 24 months seems a very safe amount not to hurt anyone's sales. Keep in mind that even restricting it to 24-month-old products means I would have almost a year's worth of products to input. For all I know, the de facto age based on entry lag time might get BIGGER!

Even when you go the way of plain text, it will still generate a lot of trafic, traffic costs money, money you will have to pay.

The ISP I am currently using provides unmetered bandwidth at a fixed cost provided the site does not serve (a) porn or (b) MP3s. Since I'm not doing so, I'm okay. Oh, and I don't intend to serve *all* the OGC at once. (again, see below)

What stops people from copying your database and adding stuff that falls out of your rules and making it more usefull, thus killing your site?

Number one, "diligence." People would know that my site is running on a watertight OGL policy, shielding them from legal troubles. Frex, if I used something from FFE and had included Drawmij because they had, I'd been worried right now. With a site that the publishers themselves contribute to, it is established as the place to go to get "pure" OGC content unmuddied by other stuff and possible legal problems.

Number two, "structure." I don't intend to serve one massive document - I would instead try to serve content in more "bite-size" pieces. And with the architecture I currently have in place, I can make pretty small to pretty large pieces. Just as the SRD is not all stored together, but instead cut into 100 smaller files, I could serve this in smaller pieces.

For example, you might go to the Spells page. You might then choose "Wizard" spells. You might then choose "Level 2" spells. You might then choose "Rays." You would then get the first 10 Level 2 spells that are Rays displayed on the screen, with proper OGL and Section 15 at the bottom. You could then click on any one spell to get just that spell with its section 15. Or you could click to get the next ten spells... by limiting it to "ten at a time" in this manner, I'm not serving thousands of spells at once, keeping bandwidth problems down and making it a bit harder to copy/paste en masse.

Basically, IMO, the trick is "make sure you cut everything into bite-sized pieces" instead of putting whole books out there for people to download.

I think the biggest problem is OCRing all the OGC text and making sure it's OGC only.

Again, I think nearly all publishers write on the computer in the first instance these days and send electronic files to the publisher. If the d20 publishers are on board, OCRing is not necessary.

What to do with creatures that have IP names?

Or spells? Or NPCs? Or anything else?

The simple answer: the company may either declare the name OGC or I'll strip out the old name and put a new (OGC) one in. I would want NOTHING that is not OGC "muddying" this database.

--The Sigil

 

[The Sigil]

The thing with it being a PDF is it can also be afordably distributed on CD. This would allow for companies to pick it up and also cut down on the amount of non-companies getting their hands on it.

Also Personaly Id say it would be only available to companies who have actualy published materials that have been sold in established online stores or in regular game stores (be they pdf or otherwise) this would mean that its not someone making a fake company just to get some free stuff.

I never intended this to be on a website as this then does make it overly accessablew and abusable and would cut into sales.

As for a refrence to Look in this book for this info... well thats pretty much done by the EN world reviews page. the thing is for a company say wanting to make a book on ships... It does get a bit costly if they have to go pay a bunch of money and time sifting throught other ship books to see what has already been done.


I see OGC as being something that is meant to be free to use for other companies who like the ideas and feel it would incorporate well into whatever theyre putting together or to let them know its already been done. However since wotc is the only person to have put OGC materials online it really means you have to pay a bundle to gain access to OGC of a given book or series of books.

Its Hard to say if this would be good or bad but personaly If its kept within legitimately established d20 producing companies who arent going to go under in 2 days I think it would work fine. (no offense intended here to anyone)


The only other way i could see this being done is as sort of a personal database with no outside access, that is run sort of like a company. D20 companies could send a query for information on OGC info on a certain subject and be given the specific info theyre looking for.

Here we differ.

IMO, the problem with saying, "only certain people get to use this" is that it creates an "elite club." As in, one that is seen as elitist by others.

Remember all the uproar about WotC's decision to make the 3.5e revisions accessible only to companies that have published a print product or had former WotC R&D people on staff? WotC made a dividing line and people didn't like it.

As I see it, you really can't make a dividing line easily... it has to be "for nobody" or "for everybody."

The line might be: "You published 5 products last year."

Someone comes along and says, "Well, what about me? I started up in June and published four products... that prorates to five!"

Someone else comes along and says, "Well what about me? Four is close to five and three is close to four..."

So eventually you get to "one print product." Does a POD of a PDF at RPGNow count? If so, why not a solely PDF product? Who determines who is and isn't a "Real" d20 company? You just can't do it ethically IMO.

That means anything like this would need to be done in one of two ways:

1.) Only those who have contributed to the pool can use it. That means even the smallest contribution - 1 spell - is enough to get you in. An "entry fee" if you will.

2.) Anyone can use it, even without an "entry fee."

Given the spirit of the Open Game License, I would prefer to see #2.

That's why I suggested a webpage-type thingy instead of a PDF. Because ultimately, it's going to happen - give someone a PDF and I guarantee you, a copy will eventually get out on Kazaa or Grokster or whatever and from there onto the net at large... especially since there's no legal recourse to stop someone from distributing OGC if they do it correctly - and remember, the OGL prohibits putting any other conditions on the distribution of OGC, so you can't "lock down the content" on the CD tighter to keep it from happening.

I'm being a realist here. If an OGC compilation is put together, it will get out on the web. What I'm trying to do is let d20 companies dictate the terms in which it goes out onto the web while they still can. If they wait until after it's out there, it will be far too late (see: RIAA/MPAA and Napster/Kazaa/P2P in general).

--The Sigil

 

[DaveMage]

Geist: I'm not sure of your goal with this, but keep in mind that many of the OGC items most DMs would want are already available via the various netbooks that are out there.

EN World has numerous links to these netbooks that list most of the OGC feats, prestige classes, etc.

In fact, after seeing some of these netbooks, there is no reason to purchase many of the compilations that are out there.

Check them out!

http://www.datadeco.com/nbofeats/

http://www.fancc.net/nboequip/

 

[tensen]

A far bettter tool would be a list of OGC references. Need rules for ship-to-ship combat? Go to these sources. Need rules for new kind of magic item? Try out the xxx in book yyy or the zzz in book aaa, etc.

This would work well.. Especially with the proper contact information to request that OGC from the publisher.
I haven't had a problem requesting information in the past.. but sometimes it requires being passed from person to person until you get the right one with all the information. A publisher could use this to list who has the particular electronic form fo the OGC for use, and the proper section 15 for the product, so that it doesn't get misused.

Of course each particular thing needs to be listed in the OGC references. Each topic in the products, since I could go and say Moon Elves is 100% OGC... but then would you be able to find out each of the types of magic armors we have in it.. or know about the new cleric domains?