D20 OGC Master Compilation.

[Cergorach]

To further complicate matters, most publishers will not lift a finger to help, for two reasons. First off, they are just way too busy trying to run their own businesses. Second, do not underestimate the fear of losing sales - we have already had publishers approach us and ask us to leave their OGC out of our books. Think about that for a moment - there are some publishers out there who do not want their OGC touched by another.

Matt, i have to agree that a lot of publishers will try to work against the use of their OGC material. The most obvious is not making clear what is and what isn't OGC. I understand that making sure that every bit of OGC is proprly marked as OGC is a decent amount of work when publishing a book. But how much time has to be spent cleariving OGC material?

If every publisher would follow the liscence correctly we wouldn't have to approach publishers to make sure whether we do things correctly or not.

OGC!=free, but it can be if we choose so. It only takes one person to buy the product and distribute it's OGC material, this could be done as early as the day after the release. Now that would be scarry for a couple of D20 publishers, because they specialize in crunchie bits and nothing else. OGC will motivate D20 publishers to make more than just crunchy bits, it motivates them to make an attractive product that can stand on it's own without the crunchy bits.

A couple of books (such as AEGs FEATS for example) don't really add anything new or attractive to the equation and i would rather see such products disappear.

 

[kingpaul]

Second, do not underestimate the fear of losing sales - we have already had publishers approach us and ask us to leave their OGC out of our books. Think about that for a moment - there are some publishers out there who do not want their OGC touched by another.

Is that...well...proper? I know that asking permission to use OGC is not a requirement, but a nicety. However, once something is declared OGC, its out for anyone who wishes to follow the OGL to use.

Now, we have faced some criticism (ha!) in the past with regards to how our OGC is declared - you know and I know that argument so let us not rehash it here. However, I will say this - one reason we use this method is so that someone cannot come along with a big vacuum cleaner and just OCR all our books and chuck them on RPGNow for $5 a throw. If you really want our material for your own work, you'll hash it about anyway and so there is no real additional workload. If you just want to hoover up our stuff, I am not going to make it any easier.

Well, at least now I understand why you moved to the declaration that you have. Its just my opinion, but I don't think the "Everything that is derivative..." statement meets the "...clearly indicate..." requirement of Section 8 of the OGL.

The trouble is, there is a section in our little community who truly believe that OGC means free.

And there's also a section of the Open Source community who thinks it means free. I agree with you, it doesn't, but that's just me.

 

[Mongoose_Matt]

Is that...well...proper? I know that asking permission to use OGC is not a requirement, but a nicety. However, once something is declared OGC, its out for anyone who wishes to follow the OGL to use.

Well, to be honest, as far as a business is concerned, that is neither here nor there

True, if we were to use their material anyway, they would not have a leg to stand on. But why start a war? There are plenty of other sources out there. . .

 

[kingpaul]

True, if we were to use their material anyway, they would not have a leg to stand on. But why start a war? There are plenty of other sources out there. . .

I'm talking about starting a war. I'm just confused why someone would declare something OGC and then not want anyone to use it, that's all.

 

[Mongoose_Matt]

Okay, no names named here.

Suppose Publisher A releases Book Z, which contains material from Book Y by Publisher B. Book Z does very well. Publisher B fears that sales of Book Y will start to slip. He asks Publisher A not to do it again when Book C is planned.

In a nutshell

 

[Kerrick]

OK, I think you two (paul and Matt) are discussing apples and oranges.

Paul, on the one hand, is talking about material which has specifically been declared OGC, and thus carries the implicit statement of "Feel free to use and distribute this material as you see fit, because we want to give back to the community." Example: Everything in the SRD.

Matt, OTOH, is talking about d20 mechanics in general, which are technically closed content, but still fall under the purview of the OGL and can thus be used by other publishers without obtaining permission beforehand. You CAN do it, but it's frowned upon and considered extremely unprofessional - IOW, someone who does it more than once is likely to suffer a severe loss of rep and/or sales when the word gets out.

Now. If we were to build an OGL database like everyone's talking about (and I wholly support this endeavor), let it be material that has specifically been declared Open Gaming Content under the provisions of the OGL. Several people have already made the observation that there is far too much material already on the market for any ten people to collate, and really it amounts to stealing, OGL or not. If we really want a true "free for anyone to access" database, use material that has been donated by the community for the good of all with their blessings and implicit permission to use - that way there will be no arguments, no accusations about poaching products, and no worries about people simply logging into the database and getting what they want without buying the books. In addition, I think it will encourage more people to make their own OGC so that they can be recognized as companies that give back to the community, thereby enriching the group as a whole.

 

[kingpaul]

Matt, OTOH, is talking about d20 mechanics in general, which are technically closed content, but still fall under the purview of the OGL and can thus be used by other publishers without obtaining permission beforehand.

I'm confused by this statement. How can something be both closed and open at the same time? Mechanics, unless they are completely new, and have no connection to the mechanics in the SRD/MSRD, have to, IMO, be open, as they derive from the SRD/MSRD.

 

[The Sigil]

Now. If we were to build an OGL database like everyone's talking about (and I wholly support this endeavor), let it be material that has specifically been declared Open Gaming Content under the provisions of the OGL. Several people have already made the observation that there is far too much material already on the market for any ten people to collate, and really it amounts to stealing, OGL or not. If we really want a true "free for anyone to access" database, use material that has been donated by the community for the good of all with their blessings and implicit permission to use - that way there will be no arguments, no accusations about poaching products, and no worries about people simply logging into the database and getting what they want without buying the books. In addition, I think it will encourage more people to make their own OGC so that they can be recognized as companies that give back to the community, thereby enriching the group as a whole.

You mean the kind of stuff that is given back to enrich the community like they have over at the FanCC?

Link: www.fancc.net

--The Sigil

 

[The Sigil]

I am not really against the idea of this database, partly because the subject has been raised before and I seriously doubt whether it will ever get done. The magnitude of this task is _enourmous_. Think about it for a moment - if it is going to have _real_ value, rather than just be another compilation of random elements, then you need to include, well, everything! PDFs will be the easiest to incorporate but, at some point, you have to look at the larger publishers. Just taking Mongoose as an example, that is 6-900 pages to keep up with _every_ month. Add to that GR, FFG, FFE, MEG and all the rest (every month, remember!) and the task is staggering.

If it's an argument you're looking for on that point, you won't find one here... de facto (due to the time requirements), such a database would always "lag" the latest and greatest d20 material by a good amount... months if not years.

To further complicate matters, most publishers will not lift a finger to help, for two reasons. First off, they are just way too busy trying to run their own businesses.

The first reason, to me, is not valid IF a publisher decides they want to support such an endeavor. I may be wrong, but I have to believe that publishers have electronic versions of the text of their documents somewhere - an .rtf, .doc, .pdf or what have you. You guys likely wrote it and edited it on a computer, and somewhere is that approved editors copy. If a publisher wants to help, I've volunteered to "strip mine" the OGC - all that company has to do is forward an email with the file attached. That is not going to put a serious crimp in anyone's schedule save my own.

Second, do not underestimate the fear of losing sales

This, on the other hand, I will give you without argument. Such a database would in point of fact be extremely threatening to sales. No dissent here.

we have already had publishers approach us and ask us to leave their OGC out of our books. Think about that for a moment - there are some publishers out there who do not want their OGC touched by another.

This is an attitude ("don't use my OGC") that I flat-out just don't get. *shrugs* I guess I find it odd that WotC has given people the D&D sandbox to play in and they don't want to share - and an attitude like this seems to say, "well, even though the d20STL/OGL says I have to, I'm not happy about it." Weird.

The thing is, I can see exactly where they are coming from but I am not sure their fears carry much weight. However, we respect their wishes and give their material a wide berth.

Agree with you on all points. I see where they're coming from, I don't think their fears carry much weight, and it's courtesy to respect their wishes. Kudos to you.

Now, we have faced some criticism (ha!) in the past with regards to how our OGC is declared - you know and I know that argument so let us not rehash it here. However, I will say this - one reason we use this method is so that someone cannot come along with a big vacuum cleaner and just OCR all our books and chuck them on RPGNow for $5 a throw.

Instead, people scan them in with a big vacuum cleaner and just OCR all the books and chuck them on file-sharing networks for free. (I monitor networks from time to time to ask those sharing my stuff to stop and I've seen Mongoose stuff floating about too - as I'm sure you know). The *really* dishonest folks are going to reproduce the material regardless of the OGL or copyright or anything else... A sad reality of the world we live in today.

If you really want our material for your own work, you'll hash it about anyway and so there is no real additional workload. If you just want to hoover up our stuff, I am not going to make it any easier.

I understand your viewpoint - that you don't want people to "cut and paste" their way to fame and glory with your stuff. But I feel compelled to mention that such a stance seems just a touch hypocritical given the "cut and paste" nature of the Ultimate Feats and Ultimate Prestige Classes books and the whole brouhaha that came out of not properly crediting folks for some of the stuff in there in Section 15... but that's another thread entirely.

The trouble is, there is a section in our little community who truly believe that OGC means free. No, it does not. I have to pay for it (in buying other publisher's books or paying writers) - why shouldn't anyone else?

I feel OGC is free - but that doesn't mean free as in "free beer" but does mean free as in "free speech." However, it is a point of fact that as a consequence of the OGL, OGC can "become" free as in beer if anyone chooses to do the work required to make it become so... though they certainly may have to pay in the first instance, they could then conceivably distribute it freely (as in free beer).

So it doesn't inherently mean "free as in beer," but the mechanism exists in the OGL to allow it to become so - and I think this is what Mongoose' OGC declaration stance is trying as hard as it can to prevent.

I happen to think you're proceeding forth from flawed premises, since we have multiple examples of products - including award-winning ones - that are 100% OGC and I know I haven't seen a PDF version of, say, Death in Freeport or any of Bastion Press' stuff (other than the stuff released by Bastion themselves) for sale at RPGNow.com yet. I think the fear is unfounded, but I'll grant you that it IS a possibility and that if you feel strongly about it, making the OGC declaration difficult is a way to do it. I'm not sure it flies as "clear designation" but again, this is not the thread to argue that. IOW, I see where you're coming from, and I respect it, but I think your fears are unfounded.

There is a facility within the OGL that allows someone to take such material and distribute it freely but you could argue he is selling himself short. However, this is the risk that every publisher who takes advantage of OGC runs and if a publisher does not understand that (mentioning no names) then he is in the wrong game.

*applauds* Well put.

I realise this is not going to be a popular opinion with some people, but I have 9 staff members, some of whom have families and mortgages and I cannot afford to simply hand out vast chunks of their work for nothing.

Nobody said you had to have a popular opinion.

At the end of the day, this database idea is a _great_ thing for gamers and hobbiests who love to tinker (whether the results of their work make it onto RPGNow.com or not). Of course it is - compile everything and get it all for free (or very little).

But you cannot expect publishers to be very impressed

I fail to see why publishers wouldn't want a great library of material to draw from to help them avoid re-inventing the proverbial wheel... you mentioned yourself you had to spend money to buy other books to get the OGC out of them... wouldn't it have helped your budget not to have had to buy them?

Oh, and I DO expect publishers to be IMPRESSED by such a database, should it ever show up - because they'll know the amount of work involved - they of all people should be most impressed. But I don't necessarily expect them to be HAPPY.

Seriously, though, if it's only the "crunchy bits" with all the fluff stripped away, I still see considerable utility for publishers.

My honest view. Take it for what it is worth.

That was what I had in mind... not wholesale text or PDF copies of books, but, say, a database of every spell out there. Every monster out there. The mechanics for Fighting Styles (i.e., XP cost, name of style, and benefits at each "rank") from Quint Fighter - basically a progression table plus a description of the special abilities acquired. The analagous mechanics for the Guilds in Guildcraft. A master compilation of PrCs - their name, requirements, and benefits at each level (only).... no flavor text, no illustrations, etc. Just the crunch, ma'am. Think Ultimate Prestige Classes without the flavor description of the class and the "classic play" boxes or AEG's Feats book.

And I for one appreciate your candor. I'd much rather know where we agree and disagree up front. I think I know where you're coming from, and I'll respectfully disagree with you on some points - but it is respectful disagreement - I'll agree to disagree with you.

--The Sigil

 

[tensen]

I fail to see why publishers wouldn't want a great library of material to draw from to help them avoid re-inventing the proverbial wheel... you mentioned yourself you had to spend money to buy other books to get the OGC out of them... wouldn't it have helped your budget not to have had to buy them?

Oh, and I DO expect publishers to be IMPRESSED by such a database, should it ever show up - because they'll know the amount of work involved - they of all people should be most impressed. But I don't necessarily expect them to be HAPPY.

1) Publishers will probably reinvent the wheel anyway... because they either don't agree with the mechanics... or it ends up not being mechanics that work out with something else they designed.
2) Cost is rarely in buying the books and getting it out. Since many publishers already provide the OGC text for the particular material you are looking for if asked. And even provide you with the proper section 15 block.
3) This will make a horrendous task for developers to look through, each and every time they get a submission... just to make sure some freelancer didn't inappropriately borrow material from it without designating it. It would make it easier for publishers to inadventantly use materials because of a freelancer with access here. Rarely will a freelancer use material from another book, since it would involve them typing it all in. But when they already have cut and paste notes... fun.

if the material is all there.. I would consider it a headache.
If you list a product and what new material:

Names of each of the spells. Names of Magic items. Names of new feats. Name of a new sort of mechanic. I feel that would be more helpful. Along with the proper contact that the publisher wants you to use to contact them for the specific OGC material.

If someone asks me for all the text on Moon Elves. I'll tell them to bugger off. If they ask me for a list of 10 spells... I'll give them the material and the section 15 block.