d20 Shadowrun conversions - would it be worth it?

[Henry]

Dropshadow has a thread, Magic in the Shadows, which brought up a few side-questions, one of which got my mental wheels turning. Rather than derail dropshadow's thread, I thought I'd bring the topic here.

Something Glassjaw said...

Well unfortunately, most of these threads do. The thing is, many people have tried to convert SR to d20. It has been discussed a bunch in here. The reason it continually gets discussed over and over again is that no one (from what I've seen) has pulled it off successfully.

My personal belief it continually gets discussed over and over again is because none of the Shadowrun Mechanics or basic game terminology is open game content and cannot be secured by outside license from Fanpro to do a d20 conversion, therefore each person doing the conversion has to re-invent the wheel in an unofficial capacity if they wish to do it legally. It's analogous to the AD&D adventure creating crowd prior to the year 2000 - no one can touch the game rules in an official capacity, therefore no development gets done outside of isolated efforts.

If Fanpro authorized a d20 conversion, I'd buy it immediately; if I had the money personally, I'd attempt to acquire a license myself and do it - I love the genre and setting that much. But the dice mechanics I just cannot make work for me, to the point where I'd play it in anything from WEG d6 to GURPS before using its mechanics, and I believe there's a sizeable enough fanbase out there to make it a worthwhile small-press product - otherwise, why are there all these individual attempts in the first place? If it were pointless to attempt due to the strength of the mechanics, why do so many people continue to do so? (And have done so since 1991)?

So my big point is - do you personally think that SR would be well-served by a professionally done d20/OGL conversion? Or even a well-done GURPS conversion? Does the large number of half-hearted conversion attempts by what seems to be dozens of net-fans represent a silent group who would jump at the chance to Run the Shadows if there were a different resolution mechanic (say, a solid target number instead of comparing successes)?

Would even World of Darkness' revised success mechanic be a positive factor?

 

[GlassJaw]

The first question I would ask is why do you think a SR to d20 conversion needs to be done?

The answer I would anticipate is that the SR ruleset is too complex. I agree that the SR rules are fairly sizable but that's one of the things that makes Shadowrun what it is. SR is not for the casual gamer. Not to sound elitist, but SR requires a certain level of intelligence, moreso than d20 IMO.

So my big point is - do you personally think that SR would be well-served by a professionally done d20/OGL conversion?

I assume you're talking about sales here. Anything d20, especially when done by a large d20 company, is probably going to get more attention than anything done by FanPro. So sure, it would probably sell because it would pick up d20 fans who have heard of SR but have never played it before.

You will have detractors though. The current SR community (which I'm finding to be quite strong, check out the DumpShock forums) is extremely loyal and dedicated to the betterment of the game. Many of them write and distribute SR material for FREE, some of which is better than d20 products I have purchased. I believe that many would view a SR d20 conversion as "selling out". I compare the SR community to following an obscure underground band and then getting mad when they get on MTV.

If Fanpro authorized a d20 conversion, I'd buy it immediately

I'm not sure I would. Bear in mind that I'm going through d20 burnout right now but I actually think the d20 system has dissuaded companies from exploring other game mechanics (like ones that are skill-based).

I like SR the way it is. I play SR because it's not d20. I play SR because it's different. I play SR because it requires more brainpower than D&D. Oh, I play SR because of the guns too.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I've read many of the Shadowrun books, played the Shadowrun game for the Sega Genesis and, briefly and unpleasantly, tried to play Shadowrun using the Shadowrun RPG's rules.

As such, I have little feel for how the mechanics ran aside from disliking them immensely, just for the flavor of the world. And I see no logical reason d20 Modern/Grim Tales couldn't be used to replicate the flavor of the Shadowrun world.

In looking for a conversion, that would be what I sought: rules that I enjoyed playing for a world I very much like.

I would buy Shadowrun d20 immediately. It's one of the few settings I would actually try hard to get a group together for.

 

[sinmissing]

Not to sound elitist, but SR requires a certain level of intelligence, moreso than d20 IMO.

Hahahaha! That's so funny, Mr. Elitist. They use to say that about 1st Edition D&D too!

If the setting is so kewl, it should be able to withstand any reasonable mechanic. I'd love to see a d20 Shadow Run, not because I'd run out and buy it, but because it would accomplish two things. First, it reinvigorates the setting. More accessibility, more participants, more material, more likely to draw professional writers, more likely to convince me to purchase it and definitely more likely to be cannabilized by my own d20 games.

Second, it moves the setting out of the hands of elitists. It makes them angry and so they have to throw all their stuff out on ebay and go find some other semi-popular marginal rpg and dump their life force into it. All the while, I just hang back and feed on the tasty tasty life energy.

 

[Cergorach]

Why use D20 rules instead of SR D6 rules:

1.) The marginally less complex rules. Some say that SR is rules heavy, i think they are right, but not more so then D20 with SR style magic rules, cyberware, guns, netrunning, etc.

2.) Familiar rules, almost everyone (atleast on here) has played or is playing D&D (or D20 variant), that makes moving to a new setting with slightly different rules a lot easier. As a result the treshold of starting a D20 SR game would be a lot lower. I know for a fact that my current group wouldn't be interested in learning a new rules set just to try out SR, mostly due to limited time.

3.) The D6 system behaves freakishly at different target numbers, standing five meters closer to the target means the difference between 6 successes and 2 successes. A kill or a miss. This makes gauging situations extremely difficult for the DM, not to mention that due to the amount of dice, good/bad luck makes a huge difference. Throwing six dice and all turn up six might kill a character or npc instantly, all ones might kill the person holding the gun, it's kind of like playing russian roulette. Which might sound fun and 'realistic', but it's a huge game disturber. A D20 is a lot more predictable compared to a fistfull of D6.

4.) A D20 version is bound to attract a new crowd to SR, it badly needs a new crowd because the old crowd are a bit to stuck in their own ways (i would go as far as to say that they've become stagnant).

Overall i think that making a full coler hardcover 320 page SR D20 rulebook will reap a nice profit with a big pool of new players. Most sourcebooks (except the core books) already have seperated fluff frome crunch, so adding a section with D20 rules would appeal to a lot of new SR fans. New SR fans means more sales, more sales means that the price per unit can go down and thus paying for the extra rules section.

For example:
State of the Art - 2063 is a 128 page rulebook, 32 pages of which are centered on SR D6 rules. It costs $19.95. If you would add another 32 page section of D20 SR rule (i think i could fit it in 16 pages but let's stick with 32), you'll get a 160 page book. If the increase of fanbase would be 25% i think that the average print cost per book would be about the same (more units printed means that the price per unit goes down), but the profit margin goes up. Not to mention that you would have more cash to spent on writing and artwork (let's be honest, designing rules for D20 is a lot easier then designing rules for SR D6).

I think the problem is that Fanpro is actually listening to all the people saying that they won't buy any products if SR would also have a D20 version. I personally think that most of these 'screamer's (as i call them) are nothing more then hot air, i've hung around a lot of them for a time. I think that they would sing differently when there's suddenly more money available for SR development.

 

[Longshadow]

Not to sound elitist, but SR requires a certain level of intelligence, moreso than d20 IMO.

Sigh.

(1) Distinctly limited perspective, as I've seen exactly the same breed of twinkies thrive using both rules sets, and

(2) Really not helping advance your case any -- anything that feels like it must be prefaced with "not to sound elitist" almost invariably comes off sounding very elitist.

Back to the thread, and making sure that everybody remembers that the thread starter was asking for personal opinions and not "When Jesus was leaving our last game he showed me a picture of the rock outside Heaven where his dad carved into stone my proclamations about gaming" announcements and dismissals from on high, I will wade in and say that no, I don't think the setting translates well to either d20 or GURPS, nor are such conversions called for (I'm hard pressed to think of a single such translation for any non-d20 originating game that I've actually liked). It does function well in the system designed specifically for it and evolved over 15 years and three editions.

GURPS, IMO, only handles well a very limited, mundane, and not-at-all-cinematic game. D20, IMO, only handles well and over the top video-game-on-paper feel at best or a wargamer-only-crunchy-crunch-need-apply heavy-handed balance and accounting fixation at worst (boy, is that gonna attract flames no matter how else I could have phrased it). I won't delve too much into GURPS specifics (I avoid GURPS, playing or running, and only have some of the books for source mateial -- which the line is always good for ). But on d20:

--Combat--
Doesn't remain cinematically gritty enough. Too hard to actually kill characters, especially one-shot kills. SR is lethal. LETHAL. Only munchkin wet-dreams that no GM should let be played waltz through without a care. Even with MDT in play, d20 doesn't have this. A 10th level Tough Hero could take a maxed out crit from a 50 caliber rifle and not go down, not act with any penalty, not even necessarily slow down until the magic 0 HP roll around (after sucking up an absolute barrage of gunfire to force it) and then suddenly drop over. Boom.

In fact, any game where a character can hold a grenade in his hands, watch it explode and say "Ouch. I really shouldn't do that." before wiping his hands clean and walking off isn't a good fit for a dark, cyberpunkish future -- IN MY OPINION.

--Magic--
Even with the logic tweaks d20 added to the old D&D magic system, it still shows it's Vancian roots. In the SR setting, a powerful enough will in a mage allows him to cast spell after spell over and over (though spell selection is considerably more limited). When he finally gimps out, he's gonna collapse, not just pull out a weapon, apologize to his friends for running out of spells, and begin blasting away without penalty. Several new subsystem add-ons would be required in the d20 magic system to emulate that.

--All or Nothing Skills--
d20 is set up for skill success or skill failure, not gradation of success. This would be the easiest thing to fix of the difficulties encountered (and Unearthed Arcana's introduction of complex skill checks starts you on the path), but still reflects the grit in the worldview.


Personally, I think settings designed with d20 in mind from conception are the only ones that really work in d20. I loathed the Deadland and Fading Sun ports, and really, really, really hated the Aberrant port. Does that make d20 a bad game? No. It just means it isn't perfect for all things; but then, regardless of the fanatic devotion of HERO, GURPS, or d20 system acolytes, no system is perfect for all things. :\

Oh, well. There's my .02 on the matter. I'll sit back and wait for the attacks to now begin.

 

[GlassJaw]

Here are a couple of threads (one started by me) on the Dumpshock forums (a SR board) on this very subject:

http://forums-temp.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=5560

http://forums-temp.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=2648

Needless to say, I wasn't surprised by the comments.

anything that feels like it must be prefaced with "not to sound elitist" almost invariably comes off sounding very elitist

I figured this would be the comment that raised the most attention. I like and play both d20 (a lot I might add) and SR so I'm not sure why people are taking offense to my statement. Anyway, I don't really care. I'm sticking to my guns on this one.

On average, a different type of gamer plays SR. SR does not attract the casual gamer. SR is a much more cerebral game. Just look through some of the cyberware books. They are like reading an anatomy textbook.

Remember, EN World is not a true cross-section of gamers out there. Many of the people in the groups that I'm in are casual gamers. They don't post on message boards and they don't buy a lot of books. They like to get together on the weekends and roll some dice and kill some stuff. They also don't play SR and probably wouldn't if given the chance (I asked them). Perhaps intelligence was the wrong word to use. Dedication is probably better. So let's all take it easy and save the easy attacks ok?

First, it reinvigorates the setting

I'm not sure it really needs it.

I think the problem is that Fanpro is actually listening to all the people saying that they won't buy any products if SR would also have a D20 version. I personally think that most of these 'screamer's (as i call them) are nothing more then hot air, i've hung around a lot of them for a time. I think that they would sing differently when there's suddenly more money available for SR development.

Again, I would buy this argument if the quality of SR products was lacking. Of the top-10 best RPG books I own, at least 25% of them are SR books. The quality and innovation of SR products is amazing. SR is the perfect example of quality, not quantity.

 

[Cergorach]

Oh, well. There's my .02 on the matter. I'll sit back and wait for the attacks to now begin.

Actually i think your right, a simple D20 Modern conversion would not give us the SR feel at all, it would take a lot of tweaks. Actually, Spycraft would be a lot better for D20 SR then D20 Modern would.

The one thing i think your wrong about is that lethal = good. I've been a DM for a long time, DMing both SR (in it's last two incarnations) and D&D, and the one thing i've learned is that no player is happy when their character dies in a stupid situation (especially when there's no resurrection). The SR system itself does not accept 'mistakes', get to close to that punk and your dead meat, i find this a problem because it doesn't allow the player to learn from his/her mistakes. Even the simple act of discharging a gun is hazardous for your health (throwing all ones while shooting actually killed a character) while it might be funny in the first instance, the look on the player's face tells me otherwise.

I've had D&D players tell me how kewl it was when their characters died, but never while playing russion roulette...

 

[Cergorach]

Again, I would buy this argument if the quality of SR products was lacking. Of the top-10 best RPG books I own, at least 25% of them are SR books. The quality and innovation of SR products is amazing. SR is the perfect example of quality, not quantity.

I think that the mechanics have improved, but i think the fluff and presentation haven't (atleast haven't improved as much as they should). When i look at the 'best' SR supplements i own i find that the older books attract me more then some of the newer books.

Is Shadows of North America really better then NAN vol.1+2 and NA Guide to North America? Sure there are some new things, but very few have the same kewlness the older material had in it's time.

 

[Paragon]

the only thing i could see as being a problem in the conversion process would be the magic system. I love the SR magic system, i think it is incredible and the closest thing to what a mage should be able to do, instead of fire and forget that dnd has.
i played SR the day the first book came out. through the latest edition and i have never bought the idea that a setting can't transition through a different system. if the game idea is solid and the gaming system is solid it will work. if a game can't transend it's rule set i think it's a weak game concept. that said there may be aspects of a game system or concept that don't translate well. like with SR magic system i would be interested to see how that is done.