D20 taking over?

[2WS-Steve]

I've become a pretty big fan of the unification of system and hope it spreads. I collect and play a lot of different game systems but none of them offer the support that d20 does.

1) How many game systems give you naval rules let alone 3 options to choose from?
2) Mass combat rules?
3) Two sets of starship combat rules?
4) Hundreds of pre-designed monsters?
5) Over a hundred pre-designed NPCs?
6) Scores if not over a hundred pre-designed scenarios?
7) 4+ different magic systems?
8) A fairly developed set of Chase rules?
9) An ever-expanding variety of genres and campaign settings?
10) An expanding line of software preparation tools both porfessional and fan-designed?

11) And all this within less than two years of the game system's launch?

All of these features make my job of developing and running a campaign much easier. GURPS comes the closest of course but it's been out forever and is still notoriously thin on the scenarios front. Unification of system is what allows all this.

What I'd like to see and I think would benefit roleplaying in general is a collapse around perhaps three systems, d20, a more gritty system, and a more rules-light story-telling system.

Fragmentation of the market kills a publisher's ability to produce support products that sell half-way decent which means we don't see support products which makes it harder to be a gamemaster which means we have fewer gamemasters and we need GMs for the hobby to thrive.

 

[Replicant]

One system?

Boy, it sends a chill down my spine reading all these posts in favor of a D20 takeover.

I love D20 as much as the next guy (else I wouldn't be a member of these boards), but it's FAR from the be all, end all of gaming systems. Even D20's flagship, D&D, has its issues. For my money, gritty, realistic combat is far better using the BRP system, for example. Ever play Runequest? Much better combat system, IMO. I wonder how many D20 only advocates have tried it.

And I'm sorry, I don't buy the marriage of D20 and Cthulu. Levels and increasing hp's don't jibe with the feel of the original game, or Lovecraft's works, for that matter. Again, I chose BRP.

I'm summary, D20 is great for cinematic play, but other systems are better suited for different styles.

 

[shadow]

I find that RPG's work best when the system you use fits the setting.

I disagree with this basic assumption. I find "universal" systems far superior for two basic reasons.

1. First and foremost, I hate having to learn a new system every time I want to switch settings. Unlike traditional games, RPGs have a high learning curve. It usually takes me several sessions to get confortable with a new system. Small changes in the system are OK, but I hate to have to relearn everything just to play in a different setting.

2. Second of all, I really haven't ever found a particular setting that I love. I really enjoy creating my own setting, rather than having to use a publishsed one. For that reason I would much rather have a generic rule "tool kit" that I can plug into my world than have to read through twenty pages of setting information to get to the "meat" of the game. Unfortunately to many setting based games are difficult to modify or change without destroying them. For example, while I like the technology and the idea of magic in Shadowrun I would want to tone down the magic level to make magic more hidden and mysterious and eliminate metahumans. However, in doing so it would completely destroy the game sytem. Suddenly teh Essence stat becomes very meaningless (you just have to keep it above zero) because with the lack of magic, being healed by magic becomes unlikely, eliminating the penalties associated with low essence (magic healing being less effective). Eliminating metahumans and lowering the magic level completely destroys the character creation method which is based on magic and race.

While universal systems might not be perfect for every game, I think they are far superior to setting based systems that work for one and only one setting.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I've become a pretty big fan of the unification of system and hope it spreads. I collect and play a lot of different game systems but none of them offer the support that d20 does.

1) How many game systems give you naval rules let alone 3 options to choose from?
2) Mass combat rules?
3) Two sets of starship combat rules?
4) Hundreds of pre-designed monsters?
5) Over a hundred pre-designed NPCs?
6) Scores if not over a hundred pre-designed scenarios?
7) 4+ different magic systems?
8) A fairly developed set of Chase rules?
9) An ever-expanding variety of genres and campaign settings?
10) An expanding line of software preparation tools both porfessional and fan-designed?

11) And all this within less than two years of the game system's launch?

All of these features make my job of developing and running a campaign much easier. GURPS comes the closest of course but it's been out forever and is still notoriously thin on the scenarios front. Unification of system is what allows all this.

What I'd like to see and I think would benefit roleplaying in general is a collapse around perhaps three systems, d20, a more gritty system, and a more rules-light story-telling system.

Fragmentation of the market kills a publisher's ability to produce support products that sell half-way decent which means we don't see support products which makes it harder to be a gamemaster which means we have fewer gamemasters and we need GMs for the hobby to thrive.

Well it may mean more work for the GM, if GURPS isn't putting out scenarios then you have to make your own. I know a lot of people don't have time to do that, I don't always, but In my experience the most fun has been playing adventures that are designed by the gamemaster for his players. Half the time you have to rewrite most of the published module anyway. I don't want the RPG market to resemble the computer OS market. Where you get one system that is covering 90 percent of the market while better systems are squlched because they aren't D20. And wouldn't the lack of competition from other systems cause a lack of new ideas and things to make the system better. After all Microsoft really doesn't have to make Windows that much better as you have extermely limited choices if you don't want to use it.

 

[SableWyvern]

For example, while I like the technology and the idea of magic in Shadowrun I would want to tone down the magic level to make magic more hidden and mysterious and eliminate metahumans. However, in doing so it would completely destroy the game sytem. Suddenly teh Essence stat becomes very meaningless (you just have to keep it above zero) because with the lack of magic, being healed by magic becomes unlikely, eliminating the penalties associated with low essence (magic healing being less effective). Eliminating metahumans and lowering the magic level completely destroys the character creation method which is based on magic and race.

Interestingly enough, Mechwarrior uses the same system (including character generation) as Shadowrun. Magic is simply substituted for Mech, I can't recall what replaces race.

The point is, there are major differences between the various d20 games, and any game can be tailored to a setting, generally with no more work than we see in d20.

Edited to remove sweeping and not particularly accurate generalisations

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

Kaptain: I'm intrigued.

You say that in your experience d6 and d100 systems break down at mid to high levels.

I can see a point for d100, if, by d100, you refer to games where skill values give a % chance of success, and are thus capped at 100%.

The bulk of my RPing experience is with Rolemaster, which is d100, and has no such problem.

My favourite sci-fi game is Heavy Gear (Silhouette), which uses a very elegant d6 system.

Basically, I'm wondering what exactly makes a d6 or d100 game in the context of your post. (It could be said, on a simplistic level, that d100 is just d20 x 5, or vice versa).

d100 systems I have used that cap out skills at 100% are fun for the first few levels until everybody jams all their points into "swing sword" or "fire gun" and get a 100% chance of hitting. Top Secret/S.I. had that problem. I can't even begin to understand Chaosium's system, though I've tried numerous times.

d6 systems I have played (such as Shadowrun 1e or WEG's Star Wars) require just about every action you take to require a bucket o' d6 rolls to determine success or failure. Dammit, Jim! I'm a gamer, not a mathmetician! I played Shadowrun (1e) for 3 months and never once knew what the hell I was doing. Every time I wanted to do something, I had to ask the GM, "How do I do this? How many dice do I roll? Can you add these up for me?" LOL. I couldn't figure it out, nor could the other players. The GM was the only one who understood the system (yes, I read the rulebook).

GURPS: We loved the point buy character creation (just like in D&D Skills & Powers) but we couldn't figure out the rest of the system. Using only d6 seemed limiting in the number of results one could obtain. The advanced rules were totally beyond us; we could barely comprehend the basic rules past character creation.

We started with d20 based games (D&D 1e) and that's the kind of core mechanics we are most comfortable with. Anything else doesn't "feel right" or is a pain in the ass. Palladium wasn't hard to learn (until MDC came in), it was basically like D&D. We struggled to learn the other TSR game systems in the early days because we wanted to buy every TSR RPG and try 'em, LOL. But we would have preferred not to learn new rule sets in order to do so. With the new d20 system--we don't have to. We can now do anything and the system is supported better than even 1e or 2e! This is a great time to be a gamer!

 

[Eryx]

I played Shadowrun (1e) for 3 months and never once knew what the hell I was doing. Every time I wanted to do something, I had to ask the GM, "How do I do this? How many dice do I roll? Can you add these up for me?" LOL. I couldn't figure it out, nor could the other players. The GM was the only one who understood the system (yes, I read the rulebook).

Yes, 1st ed Shadowrun was a complete nightmare to work out. The second (and now third) edition have sorted that problem out. The game is now much easier to understand and run.

 

[SableWyvern]

Thanks KK.

I was hoping (and glad to find) that your problem was moreso with specific mechanics than a simple reliance on a particular type of die.

"Aaaaargh! I can't believe you play that game! Doesn't it use d10s?"

BTW, Traveller: The New Era could have you rolling 10d20 to fire a light machine gun and make you keep track of the dice that resulted in a miss so you can apply them to new targets in the beaten zone later in the round.


Edited because I hate it when I say the exact opposite of what I intend.

 

[Holy Bovine]

As one poster said I can't imagine a supers D20 game. I guess we'll see how it works once it's finished but until then I'm very skeptical.

I am puzzled as to why people think that d20 will not make a good supers game given the inherent suckitude of every supers game out there now. Can d20 do any worse than the mess Champions was/is?

I espically find it strange to hear this as one of the major complaints I often see about D&D 3E (and to a lesser extent d20) is that characters become too powerful too quickly - this would seem to me to be an advantage in using d20 for a supers game. But time will tell on this one - we'll all have to wait and see.

 

[hong]

Just to put in my two cents.

I don't mind d20 having a representative in all the genres out there, whether it's hard SF, space opera, horror, gothic darkness, or supers. I think it's a good thing, in fact. I'm one of those people who doesn't get to game as often as desired, and thus hates having to devote time to learning a whole new set of rules (which may not get used anyway, if everybody else just wants to play D&D). I think it's a good thing if I can take the accumulated knowledge I have of d20/D&D, and apply it to whatever game I'm playing in. It may even encourage me to try out different genres to what I've done so far (mostly fantasy/D&D, as you'd guess). Consistency in the rules encourages this sort of experimentation.

That said, I doubt that d20 will really take over the world, as some posters seem to fear. There will always be people convinced of the Rightness of the One True Ruleset, whether it's D&D, WoD, GURPS, or whatever. If there's enough of them around, a ruleset will never die.