D20 taking over?

[Wild Karrde]

If a game's rules are so complex enough that you need to disallow using certain chunks of them in play to most players, how can that not be a drawback?

The same way people like to not allow prestige classes or AoO's in D&D. The same way people added AoO's in Star Wars, etc. You're provided with a set of rules that as with any game you can alter to suit your tastes. As for my group we don't disallow the use of variable power pools, I was just using that as the only place I could think of off the top of my head where that may be a problem.

 

[Psion]

This isn't unification, 2 sets of space combat rules already and more on the way, 3 sets of navel combat rules. Hundreds of monster some introducing there own special rules, hundreds of NPC's with individual prestige class and more special rules. 4 different magic systems all with there own rules. Chase rules....

Ah, but the point is that you have those. If you find yourself needing those, then those are there. That might not be the case for an independant system.

Furthermore, you have a choice. In some independant game, if the space combat rules or vehicle design system sucks, you suck it up or make your own. With d20, you at least have a chance that one of the systems offered will match your tastes or choose accordingly.

Rules, rules and more rules half of which cover stuff that has already been covered. D20 is introducing a whole new genre of gaming "ruleplaying".

w00t! The tired old battlecry of the narrative gamer hath been uttered. "Rulesplaying" indeed!

"Keep it core" that's my motto.

Then by all means just play with the core rules. But some of us like nice, well thought out, codified ways of handling things and new ideas that we wouldn't have thought of ourselves and we are reaping the benefits of the d20 system.

 

[Wild Karrde]

I've played in 4 states with multiple groups in each state. I don't think there is anything especially unique about the people I play with. But yes, that is a typical retort to the criticism, and it doesn't fly. It is silly to try to fit the people to the game instead of fitting the game to the way people play.

So D20 fits all the gamers out there like a glove? There is no need to watch what your players are doing huh?

You say right there that it drives a lot of people from the game. You can pass judgement on them all you want, the simple fact remains that a lot of people find math too much like work and don't find it a pleasant gaming experience.

I'll except that answer vs. the math is to hard but it stills doesn't sit well with me. There are simple math skills involved even in D&D which amount to the same in Champions during a typical game. However you are correct that in the character creation process it's more intensive in HERO than D&D

Quite simple, really: becasue the game encourages it. In GURPS, pumping up either dex or int, and then hanging dozens of 1/2 point skills off of it is very convenient. And you don't have to be a munchkin or, as you say, problem player, to fall into this trap. With a system like this, it becomes very easy to justify skills to yourself. Path of least resistance and all. [/B]

Again if a GM says no then it doesn't happen. And I guess if you think spending a 1/2 an hour looking at 8 characters is time better spent elsewhere then that's your choice, but I think the GM spends time looking at everyone's characters before any campaign regardless of the system.

You say right there that it drives a lot of people from the game. You can pass judgement on them all you want, the simple fact remains that a lot of people find math too much like work and don't find it a pleasant gaming experience.

Yeah I didn't finish that thought. Sorry about that but my mind runs faster then my fingers some of the time. What I meant was that people complaining about how difficult the math is that other people pass on it before they've even looked at it due to what they've heard. I've sat down with many players who that thought it was this awul monster and now they 're HERO for life.

The rub is, I don't think you have to dispense with any of that to have a decent supers game. And you have done nothing to demonstrate why classes, levels, hp, and 6 stats doesn't work for supers.

Fair enough I guess I haven't and maybe I'm just so used to the HERO system that I won't understand it until I see the d20 version. Time will tell I suppose. In my mind the d20 system seems limiting (which I think is why you like it, more control over character concept and design) as to what you can and can't do. With Hero the sky is the limit...kind of like comic book superheros.

 

[Eryx]

Furthermore, you have a choice. In some independant game, if the space combat rules or vehicle design system sucks, you suck it up or make your own. With d20, you at least have a chance that one of the systems offered will match your tastes or choose accordingly.

A good example here would be in the Star Wars D20 game I run. I don't like the space combat rules so I used the air combat rules from Dead from Above (Weird Wars) which I feel work better.

That is one bonus to having the D20 system and the OGL, it is possible to use rules that you find more fitting from different sources.

 

[Psion]

So D20 fits all the gamers out there like a glove? There is no need to watch what your players are doing huh?

Since I said nothing resembling EITHER statement, I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth or construct strawmen.

Again if a GM says no then it doesn't happen.

Sure, just like in d20. But on what do you make these decisions? You most probably base it on what makes sense for the character. But part of the task in doing this can be codified into the system so you don't have to waste so much time.

And I guess if you think spending a 1/2 an hour looking at 8 characters is time better spent elsewhere then that's your choice, but I think the GM spends time looking at everyone's characters before any campaign regardless of the system.

Sure. But to me, I have enough things to do as it is. If the system can do part of that work for me, I can spend that time working on NPCs, plots, and so forth.

Yeah I didn't finish that thought. Sorry about that but my mind runs faster then my fingers some of the time. What I meant was that people complaining about how difficult the math is that other people pass on it before they've even looked at it due to what they've heard. I've sat down with many players who that thought it was this awul monster and now they 're HERO for life.

I understand what you are saying, some people dismiss the system out of hand. (This is true of many systems, BID). One of my current players is a HERO-phile, and he isn't well educated by any stretch. He also uses hero maker, too, though.

But in my old FH/Ninja Hero campaign, there were some people who where actually playing the game and having fun with it, but they avoided making spellcasters because that would have required them to interface with the power system. It's not so much that they disdained it, it's that they didn't really grok what was going on with the power system. Some people just don't get it and probably won't ever be comfortable with it. That doesn't mean that they aren't worth playing with. And I can understand players wanting to have a good grip on their character.

Fair enough I guess I haven't and maybe I'm just so used to the HERO system that I won't understand it until I see the d20 version.

I won't know if it works until I see it either, but I certainly wouldn't dismiss it out of hand. There is a superhero game with classes and levels out there -- Heroes Unlimited. It's not the greatest system but some people like it. But then, I consider some of the authors working on d20 supers system quite a bit more talented that the author of HU, so it should be interesting at the very least.

In my mind the d20 system seems limiting (which I think is why you like it, more control over character concept and design) as to what you can and can't do. With Hero the sky is the limit...kind of like comic book superheros.

In essence, I agree. As I said earlier, I think it will be hard for a d20 supers game to beat HERO on flexibility. That does not equate to it not being a "decent supers game." It could easily be a fair, playable game that could be enjoyable who don't find HERO enjoyable.

 

[Wild Karrde]

It is silly to try to fit the people to the game instead of fitting the game to the way people play.

Since I said nothing resembling EITHER statement, I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth or construct strawmen.

That's what I made my statement based on. Maybe I misinterpreted but it seemed to me like you were saying that d20 erases this problem and I'm saying it doesn't, it's a problem with any character driven game system. Didn't mean to offend.

 

[Garmorn]

A different view...

I think it is nice to have a second Generic Universal Roleplaying System out there besides GURPS and HEROS systems.


D&D has always dominated the market. More so after each release. D20 has just strenghten this trend. If Steve Jackson had the Open License model to work with when GURPS first came out I think we would have seen a similar if smaller effect that the third party d20 companies are having.

I don't ever expect to see only one system. I can see and expect the number of systems to drop to just a handfull. There has always been a limited number of top selling systems. Most of the time it has been as few as 5 or less.

 

[Psion]

That's what I made my statement based on. Maybe I misinterpreted but it seemed to me like you were saying that d20 erases this problem and I'm saying it doesn't, it's a problem with any character driven game system.

Er, okay, look back at the statement of yours that was in response to. Something to the effect of "sounds like a problem with the people you play with." All I was trying to say is that the ultimate purpose of the game is for the people's enjoyment. If the way players make characters doesn't work well with the way that the game's chargen system works, I think it is wrong to blame it on the players, whose only sin might be that they simply tried to make their concept cost effectively or tried to best fit it within the point total allotted to them.

 

[Wild Karrde]

If the way players make characters doesn't work well with the way that the game's chargen system works, I think it is wrong to blame it on the players, whose only sin might be that they simply tried to make their concept cost effectively or tried to best fit it within the point total allotted to them.

This is true of any game. I don't know how you can relate this to Champions only. A munch is a munch is a munch. If something doesn't work for your game you don't allow it. The same way you would for any system. Wether it's a 30d6 EB or a lawful evil character. There is a looseness to any system, granted there is more in Champions and that's the beauty of it, but every system is gonna have this problem and you as a GM have to control it.

 

[Zerovoid]

I definately don't want to see d20 destroy all other roleplaying systems. There are some things it just won't do very well, although by discarding rules, and adding rules, and having only one class, etc... you can manage to express any game as d20.

The one thing that you can never change about d20 is that you roll a d20 + some modifiers. If this beats the DC, you accomplish whatever task you are trying to do. Well, what if you don't want a flat probability distribution? In real life, people do things pretty average most of the time. There are good reasons 1 or 20 should not be as common as a 10 or 11. Now, you can still do this in d20, but you would have to plug the modifiers and DC into some other formula designed to emulate rolling 3d6, or 2d10, or some kind of dice pool.

A lot of other things are in d20 that do not support a realistic style of play. HP's, levels, etc... Again, you can fix this, but then what do you have left?

The thing I see as most fundamental about d20 is the drastic increase in power as characters gain level. Basically, in d20, character effectiveness ~= level^2. You can see this by looking at the spell lists, or just thinking about how many 1st level fighters a 20th level fighter is worth. If you want a system where effectiveness increases at some rate less than linear, d20 will not work very well. Alot of the other systems, such as GURPS, WW, Hero, BESM, etc... have this slower rate of advancement. I think this is the biggest single obstacle making everything be d20.

I like the idea of standardization, but I'd like the market to be divided into 3-5 standard open gaming systems, instead of just one. There needs to be at least one system besides d20, to allow for a slower rate of advancement of character ability.

Also, I agree that d20 still has too much baggage from DnD. Rolling a d20 to determine success is very elegant, but there are a lot of things that don't use this system. Falling damage, spell failure chance, etc... To use a computer programming metaphor, I would rather see a simple and elegant system like scheme/lisp, instead of a language with lots of special cases like C++/Java.