D20 taking over?

[Psion]

This is true of any game.

To some degree, yes. But I do not agree, as some hype, that system doesn't matter. Different games have different degrees of "maintenance."

I don't know how you can relate this to Champions only.

Actually, in the statement I referred to, I wasn't referring to Champions so much as GURPS. Champions/HERO has some of these problems as does any freeform point design system. But at least in HERO, I can wave packages in front of their face. GURPS has no such mechanism; all GURPS has is pre-generated characters called "templates" that players typically ignore. Further, GURPS point cost structure seems to push characters towards generalists.

A munch is a munch is a munch.

There's that word again. A wide variety of players can make the types of bad calls I refer to. I vehemently disagree that you should be blaming faults of games on people and calling them names for it. That is thoroughly juvenile and judgemental.

IME, you can set the same group of players down and get different quality of results.

In GURPS, I find the munchkin factor to be about 60%. Many players come up with "1/2 point wonders" and or characters that eke every possible point they can out of disads regardless of whether it makes sense. Since the system charges more for each point, even a fairly level headed player can fall victim to grabbing the cheap skill with flimsy justification instead of adhering to the character concept and doing the non-cost effective thing and buying a singular expensive skill instead of a flurry of cheap ones.

In HERO or 2e/S&P, I found the munchkin factor to be about 40%. S&P compartmentalizes the points and doesn't give you nearly as much comparative power for disads, but some people still fall for that "eke every point" mentality. In HERO the disads are there, but usually the allowed disads seem to fit the characters of the genre, and packages are a mechanism for the GM to introduce some structure.

In 3e, I find the munchkin factor to be about 20%. There are no disads to farm out; you have to earn your keep. And the character classes help keep character ability sets logical.

So no game is immune. Some games are better.

If something doesn't work for your game you don't allow it.

I am repeating myself but: Sure. Absolutely. But why not use a system that has those sorts of judgements built into the rules instead of wasting time on ad hoc judgements?

 

[Wild Karrde]

There's that word again. A wide variety of players can make the types of bad calls I refer to. I vehemently disagree that you should be blaming faults of games on people and calling them names for it. That is thoroughly juvenile and judgemental.

If it 's a mistake then it's easy enough to fix. I was under the impression we were discussing power gamers who manipulate the rules to there utmost advantage.

I am repeating myself but: Sure. Absolutely. But why not use a system that has those sorts of judgements built into the rules instead of wasting time on ad hoc judgements?

Again it sounds as if you're saying D&D has everything figured out and those other games don't. You're always gonna have "those sorts of judgements" and "ad hoc judgements".

I'll just say this and I'm done. I really don't think either one of us is gonna change the other one mind but I believe limiting your options at anytime is a bad idea. Sounds like alot of people want to slave themselves to d20. If you do that then the same thing that made d20 so great will be gone and you're gonna be stuck for better or worse with one system. The thing that made d20 so great is it was fresh and new with a great set of rules. I'd hate to see the next great idea never come to fruition.

 

[Thorin Stoutfoot]

great ideas

I'd hate to see the next great idea never come to fruition.

I don't see why. D20 at this point has many more designers and gamers working on it than any other system. All of these folks can contribute to it, thanks to the OGL.

All of the other systems only have the publisher contributing to them, and at most one or two licensees.

You're telling me that the next great idea is going to come from one of those publishers, as opposed to the huge d20 field? The next great idea is going to happen in d20, because of the OGL. And because of the OGL, it'll get adopted quickly, the entire player base will benefit, and the guys with the original ideas will make lots of money because of this.

There's a reason why most users today are using Windows/PCs, as opposed to Amigas, Apples, or Ataris. It's because all the good stuff (cool software, etc) happens on those first. Most games come out on the PC first, for instance.

I won't be surprised to see new innovations happen first for d20 in the future.

 

[Bagpuss]

Personally I think that D20 is a fad like the Internet and will go out of fashion eventually.

Now with a good old fashion chocolate digestive you can't go wrong.

Chocolate biscuit anyone?

 

[Wild Karrde]

Re: great ideas

I don't see why. D20 at this point has many more designers and gamers working on it than any other system. All of these folks can contribute to it, thanks to the OGL.

All of the other systems only have the publisher contributing to them, and at most one or two licensees.

You're telling me that the next great idea is going to come from one of those publishers, as opposed to the huge d20 field? The next great idea is going to happen in d20, because of the OGL. And because of the OGL, it'll get adopted quickly, the entire player base will benefit, and the guys with the original ideas will make lots of money because of this.

There's a reason why most users today are using Windows/PCs, as opposed to Amigas, Apples, or Ataris. It's because all the good stuff (cool software, etc) happens on those first. Most games come out on the PC first, for instance.

I won't be surprised to see new innovations happen first for d20 in the future.

I'm talking about base mechanics. It's called d20 because that's what drives the system, roll a d20 and add or subtract a number and beat a difficulty number. They aren't going to be looking for a new game mechanic anytime soon otherwise it wouldn't be d20.

The fact that it gets more support doesn't mean it's the best, it means it's the most popular. And we all know popular doesn't equal the best. And that's also why windows can gouge you for as much as they want. You have limited your other "mainstream" options. Of course there are Mac's but again software hits the pc's first.

 

[Voneth]

Coming from someone who was constatly striving to get people to play something other than 2e for more than 10 years, all I can say is when was DND NOT taking over the hobby?

We've all known people who jumped through hoops and had reams of house rules and still instisted that ADND was THE system, all it needed was a "little" tweaking.

If TSR had let go of the copyright reins years ago, I think we would have seen this effect ages ago -- and with a much worse system to boot.

Am I big fan of d20?

Not really, but I have too many players who have a "DND way or the highway" attitude.

The odd thing is that I could change everything, magic, classes, etc, and as long as I had savings throws, AC and some way to do spells, they would still play.

 

[Thorin Stoutfoot]

one mechanic?

They aren't going to be looking for a new game mechanic anytime soon otherwise it wouldn't be d20.

Not true, of course. Spycraft introduced action dice. CoC d20 introduces Sanity. And this is just the tip of the iceberg. As more people realize what they can do with the system, we'll see new mechanics introduced into d20. It would not be inconceivable that if someone thought of a really great mechanic that could supplant d20 it could spread like wild-fire and then we'd all be using it, but my guess is that the base mechanic is good enough that nothing else will be so much better that it'd persuade everyone to adopt it.

 

[Wild Karrde]

Re: one mechanic?

Not true, of course. Spycraft introduced action dice. CoC d20 introduces Sanity. And this is just the tip of the iceberg. As more people realize what they can do with the system, we'll see new mechanics introduced into d20. It would not be inconceivable that if someone thought of a really great mechanic that could supplant d20 it could spread like wild-fire and then we'd all be using it, but my guess is that the base mechanic is good enough that nothing else will be so much better that it'd persuade everyone to adopt it.

I'm not familiar with either of those games but I'm willing to bet they still use the roll a d20 and beat a target number.

 

[Corinth]

Your point being?

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Re: great ideas

There's a reason why most users today are using Windows/PCs, as opposed to Amigas, Apples, or Ataris. It's because all the good stuff (cool software, etc) happens on those first. Most games come out on the PC first, for instance.

I won't be surprised to see new innovations happen first for d20 in the future.

I hope you don't think that is due to the superiority of the windows platform. It's easy and dumbed down for average users, and it's pre installed on 95% of the PC's sold. Sure it crashes a lot and has a lot of limitations, but if you want to play games or use the most common software you have little choice. There are plenty of OS's that just piss all over windows, but with the marketshare and monopoly power Microsuck has it's almost impossible to gain anything other than a niche position in the market as the massive user base of Windows compels devolpers to devolp for that market alone in most cases.