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d20 Transformers...

rvaughn_ffg

First Post
Kesh said:
*cough*BESM d20*cough* :D

Actually, comparing our concept to the existing d20 Mecha books was the big question on whether to go ahead with this Horizon project.

Investigation revealed that nearly every Mecha option has three things in common, none of which lend themselves to the kind of game we want to make:

1) The mechas are equipment, not characters. At best in non-d20 BESM, you make a character that owns a mecha, and that mecha can be controlled via remote control, it can be "semi-autonomous", meaning it can operate without supervision but lacks emotions and desires, or it can be "intelligent", meaning it has self-initiative and creativity but remains loyal to the character who owns it. None of these allow you to play the mecha as your main character, much less advance it as if it were a normal character.

d20 BESM is, as you suggest, much closer. It allows you to play a giant robot with some limited customizing options, but it's essentially a character class. The creature has no Constitution, and generally gets a generic set of advancements like armor, flight, massive damage, etc. Nowhere near as flexible as making your favorite giant transforming robot from cartoon, comic book, or action figure fame. This leads me to . . .

2) Scale. In general, mecha games (and d20 mecha games in particular) use Medium humanoids as a baseline, and work up from there in terms of power scale. This means that trying to play a group of giant robots involves huge amounts of damage, lots of DR, complicated combat rules, and lots of vehicle design buy points. Bleh. We want to be able to make a little guy that turns into a hatchback (1st level), idolizing the hummer or the tank (5th level), all of whom team up against the attack helicopter (10th level). It should be as easy to create and play those characters as it is a 1st, 5th, or 10th level human fighter, elven wizard, or halfling rogue. Our combat rules will look just like d20 humanoid-scale, with some cool weapon and shapeshifting fighting tricks, and we'll probably use the vehicle combat rules from Redline and Dragonstar, both of which have proven themselves as versatile, intuitive, and user-friendly. Meanwhile, since the scale advances, humans will be on a par with toads or rats or other non-attack-capable Tiny creatures in D&D.

3) Advancement and Game Mechanics. The norm for advancing mechs is to upgrade them with mechanical add-ons. How would a mech "advance" following the normal creature class advancement rules, one might ask. As a machine, wouldn't they just put on new parts, rather than going up in level? Using levels, since that's what creatures do, not machines, would seem illogical. At least, that's what some folks might think. Actually, part of the very exciting aspect of this game is that, in fact, d20 isn't logical for anything else! The fact that you can fight to 0 hp without every suffering pain or shock penalties, the fact that armor and dex add up to AC rather than dex being AC and armor being damage reduction, the fact that you somehow miraculously gain more health and hit points every time you increase your prowess and skills . . . none of these aspects of d20 are realistic for any kind of organic creature. They're all abstractions for the sake of simplicity. But conveniently enough, they work perfectly well with characters that are inorganic, mechanical beings. It's simply too good to pass up.

So, there you go. Happy to answer any more questions. One of the key things for making sure this book does well is that A) retailers tend not to re-order softcovers, thinking of them as just another periodical, and B) mecha isn't the best seller ever, so store owners might not know what sets this book apart from the other mecha books. If you're excited about the book, please do let your local game stores know, and encourage them to keep it and the other Horizon books in stock. If they don't know you folks like 'em, they won't keep 'em around.

Thanks,
 

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Ranger REG

Explorer
This might be the first Horizon series product I'll purchase, but I want to know what sort of ruleset you're using? 3e/3.5e or Modern? Is this a standalone OGL product or do I require one of Wizards' core game book?

Are there any new rules or material you want to advertise now?
 

rvaughn_ffg

First Post
Ranger REG said:
This might be the first Horizon series product I'll purchase, but I want to know what sort of ruleset you're using? 3e/3.5e or Modern? Is this a standalone OGL product or do I require one of Wizards' core game book?

Are there any new rules or material you want to advertise now?

I can't spill any beans on specific material at this time. We certainly will be posting tid-bits like that on our rants page in the near future, however.

To answer your more general question, we will be using 3.0/3.5 (I don't like to say we're using 3.5, as that makes it sound like you need the updated rulebooks to play our games. The changes between the two are minimal enough, especially since we use new races, classes, skills, feats, and weapons, that any version of d20 would work as your sourcebook).

Given the space limitations of the Horizon line, we can't go into explaining the d20 system. So it would be handy to have a PHB or DMG available during play, just to check on rules interpretations that might come up. For instance, we won't define "Blindsight" or "Flat-footed" or what have you. Therefore, technically all you'll need is a print-out of the SRD.

Thanks for the interest,
 

Imhotepthewise

Explorer
I have two of the four Horizon series so far (I don't think I could interest anyone I know into playing Grimm, and Deathnet looked more flexible to me than Virtual). I think the two I have are well worth my coin. I look forward to the Horizon mecha game.
 

Von Ether

Legend
I think eventually most gamers will have at least one Horizon book if the series makes it up to 10 or so.

For me, this is what d20 is really all about. Cool mods to your game that push the envelope. I also think that every new Horizon game, they end up getting more polished, that the experience of the previous books pays off. For example, comparing my Redline book to Spellsling, I see that they are making some informal, but regular guidelines on abbrevated skill lists and ways to deal with healing in low magic worlds.

And oh, the books are $15 for a decent attempt at a min-game, not bad.
 
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Ranger REG

Explorer
rvaughn_ffg said:
To answer your more general question, we will be using 3.0/3.5 (I don't like to say we're using 3.5, as that makes it sound like you need the updated rulebooks to play our games. The changes between the two are minimal enough, especially since we use new races, classes, skills, feats, and weapons, that any version of d20 would work as your sourcebook).
That's okay. I don't want to pick up 3.5e core rulebooks yet.

It'll be interesting to see what sort of mecha rules you are offering.
 

molonel

First Post
This is so cool. I just added it to my buy list, as well. Where do you guys recommend purchasing it?

Also, on a side note, I've started lurking here. I've contributed a couple of threads, mostly questions, but this forum is one of the coolest d20 forums I've found. There are a lot of developers here, and reading the post by one of the guys who helped to develop Mechamorphosis was ... cool.

Getting to see reviews from the guys who wrote things like Blood and Fist is also cool.

Hope to say more in the future, but d20 Modern is a system I'm only just learning. I hope to run my first campaign later this year.

Nuff said.
 

Cullyn

First Post
Being a huge fan of big robots in general and TransFormers specifically I can say that I'm *very* excited by this book. I'm just about to start a mecha based campaign and I have to agree that while d20 Mecha does touch on transformation and whatnot, they don't really give anything to the GM as far as the mecha itself being the character. I'm sure an industrious GM could work around that, but frankly, I'm lazy and like have ideas and rulesets presented to me. :)

I am definately going to buy this one. Keep it up FFG. :)
 

thundershot

Adventurer
My quibble (and I'm a HUGE TF fan) is changing the standard d20 size catagories... I like to mix things up a bit, and changing the size standards makes this game incompatable with other d20 characters. I like being able to draw from many books to get the desired results with only having to tweak one or two things.

I'll still pick it up, regardless, but how much USE it gets will depend on compatability, as I don't have the TIME to run umpteen campaigns...


Thanks
Chris
 

Von Ether

Legend
thundershot said:
My quibble (and I'm a HUGE TF fan) is changing the standard d20 size catagories... I like to mix things up a bit, and changing the size standards makes this game incompatable with other d20 characters. I like being able to draw from many books to get the desired results with only having to tweak one or two things.

I'll still pick it up, regardless, but how much USE it gets will depend on compatability, as I don't have the TIME to run umpteen campaigns...

Personally, I can't see the Horizon messing with something that basic. When they did their first book, Redline, the vehicle rules used D&D sizes and such. Technically, you could port the vehicles rules over to any other d20 game if you liked them better.

While they have the cool habit of condensing the skill list (which I like), their biggest changes are in making new classes and related funky abilities to reflect the genre. So the classes is where you will have to keep an eye on it.

On the flip side, I'll have to tell you that if you pass up on a d20 game simply becuase it's not plug and play, you are missing out on some good stuff.

Of course, I have a built-in solution for "umpteen games." I have fickle players. It seems every two months they get bored and want to something new, mostly after luster of their "kewl powers" wears off.
 

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