d20M 2e: Wish lists

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

What's with all the Urban Arcana hate? I am quite happy with it, got exactly what I was looking for.

Different strokes for different folks.

Most D20M fans already have access to DnD (that's usually where people learn to play D20 anything) and so a lot of that stuff is wasted space.

I don't need rules for goblins in Modern; the Monster Manual (or DnD SRD) already has those rules and I didn't need to spend $ to buy them again.

And if I wanted a magical setting, I'd play Wheel of Time (which is a very nice setting, BTW).

Actually, my only content gripe is that the "What's in a..." sections definitely belong in the D20M core book, but I chalk that up to an oversight on their part and am just glad they put it in when they could rather than wait for a reprinting.

I'd still love to see that in the Urban Arcana SRD.

Personally, I would like to see the 6 core classes be viable as the only classes. I love the idea of them, I've always hated prestige classes because they were so specialized and the D&D classes are only marginally better. The D20M core classes best represent a base to grow from, rather than a template to grow along. Perhaps some advanced talent trees available only at character level X or something.

You can easily play a character without taking any of the advanced classes. I'd just love to run a kick-butt Strong/Tough hero hardslab with maxed out damage reduction!

The AdCs (at least the core ones, not the setting specific ones) are well balanced however. Some could probably be replaced with feats, of course. (Close Combat Shot is one of those.)

There's a Gunslinger AdC and Sniper PrC but, guess what, those aren't necessary. Dead Aim and Far Shot do the trick, and if your GM lets you also take Improved Precise Shot. Now all we need is a feat that boosts the save DC of massive damage thresholds like in the PrC and you're all set.

As for which class to use? Fast works well, but so does Dedicated. And if you're playing a Vatican sniper, Faith works wonders too.

 

[teitan]

I don't want to pay $ for D20 Modern and find a third of it is DnD, nor do I want to see phaerimm in the Monster Manual.

See, I don't understand this line of reasoning... so you want to require new gamers to pay about 90 bucks for the D&D rules and then an ADDITIONAL 30-40 for a book on how to use those rules in modern time? That is a 120-130 dollar investment to play a game with about 2/3 being wasted space on D&D because a gamer wants to play D20 Modern and NOT D&D (I do know people who don't play D&D, or own a D&D book, but play Modern on a weekly basis).

D20 Modern is designed as an entry product for a new gamer and thusly requires the publication of the core rules within those covers. To complain about that is like complaining that you need to plug in your DVD player to watch a movie, makes no sense.

It is attitudes like this that are hurting the industry...

What is even funnier to me is watching the people who complain abpout how Vampire/Werewolf/etc all contain about 1/3 the same material and are now griping because WHite Wolf is making the core rules seperate from the different creature type books!

Sure you may already possess the majority of the D20 rules but plain Jane or Harry might not and D20 Modern may appeal to them more than D&D so asking them to pony up at least 70 dollar (a PHB and a Modern core book) is a huge mistake. D&D just requires someone to invest in a PHB.

No, keep reprinting the core rules, I like for my hobby to grow.

Jason

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

See, I don't understand this line of reasoning... so you want to require new gamers to pay about 90 bucks for the D&D rules and then an ADDITIONAL 30-40 for a book on how to use those rules in modern time? That is a 120-130 dollar investment to play a game with about 2/3 being wasted space on D&D because a gamer wants to play D20 Modern and NOT D&D (I do know people who don't play D&D, or own a D&D book, but play Modern on a weekly basis).

No, I don't expect them to pay an additional $40 on DnD-specific stuff, like stats for goblins.

D20 Modern is designed as an entry product for a new gamer and thusly requires the publication of the core rules within those covers.

I'm not complaining about core rules. I'm complaining about all the DnDisms.

What is even funnier to me is watching the people who complain abpout how Vampire/Werewolf/etc all contain about 1/3 the same material and are now griping because WHite Wolf is making the core rules seperate from the different creature type books!

I'm not one of those people, but it depends on how much the separate monster books cost.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I have no real problems with D20 Modern, except none we haven`t houserule in our group. (Which is Fast Hero Class Defense Progression, which doesn`t start at +3, but +1, and than advances each level until it reaches the same number than the original progression; and nonlethal damage.)

Some things I would change/add:

Action Point Mechanic:
I like the base idea, what I don`t like is that you have a limited amount that does only replenish if you gain a level. I would prefer another mechanic, maybe, to borrow from D20 Farsccape (not every rule presented their is bad...), something like Control Points.
(Basically working like Hitpoints, but used to fuel spells, powers, special abilities and so on)

For a game I might try in some time, I would have prefered another psionic power system - maybe a mix from AU magic and Psionic Powers, though it is difficult to describe what I am really aiming at.
Generally maybe at least one alternative low-magic/psionic system. (No Fireballs and similar spells, more subtle, without making it useless) Possibly such a system should be feat- & and skillbased.

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[JPL]

I'd like to see the expanded equipment lists from Urban Arcana.

I wouldn't miss Agents of PSI.

Otherwise, I think it's about as good as it gets without adding pages.

 

[jaerdaph]

The only change I would possibly want to see (and I'm still on the fence) would be a switch to the D&D nonlethal damage system.

Maybe include the generic equipment, rituals and other campaign independent rules from Urban Arcana too.

 

[Sir Elton]

That's about all I can think of. You?

I DON'T WANT TO SEE A D20 MODERN 1.5 IN THREE STUPID YEARS! I want 2nd Edition to come out when my Nephew starts going to kindergarten, thank you.

 

[buzz]

See, I don't understand this line of reasoning... so you want to require new gamers to pay about 90 bucks for the D&D rules and then an ADDITIONAL 30-40 for a book on how to use those rules in modern time?

What I want is for my D&D content to be in my D&D books, and my modern content to be in my d20M books. What I don't want is for my d20M books to contain a lot of D&D material I already own (or am not interested in), thereby sacrificing space that could have been used for material that would have been far more relevant to the modern action/adventure genres d20M is supposed to cover.

Urban Arcana would have worked far better, IMO, as a sourcebook for combining D&D and d20M a la the Second World Sourcebook. Then it could have focused on *actually presenting a setting*, instead of being merely an extended campaign model packed with more 'ported D&D content from books I already own.

I.e., I'm going to stick by my assertion that most poeple interested in a setting like Urban Arcana already own a lot of D&D material, and thus don't need it reprinted verbatim in yet another core rulebook.

D20 Modern is designed as an entry product for a new gamer and thusly requires the publication of the core rules within those covers. To complain about that is like complaining that you need to plug in your DVD player to watch a movie, makes no sense.

My argument is that I don't consider reprinted D&D mechanics to be a necesary part of the "core rules" for d20M. I imagine I'm probably not alone in thinking this, as I can't think of many d20M settings other than UA that don't wholly ignore the D&D FX from the core book.

Another case in point: the SWd20 RCR is intended as an entry product for new gamers, and it contains absolutely no 'ported D&D-isms. I don't see this hurting the sales of that product line.

It is attitudes like this that are hurting the industry...

I think, given what a general flop UA was and how often I hear people say they wish the D&D-isms had been dropped from d20M, that an attitude like this could have made d20M into a much bigger seller, and thus we wouldn't be having the discussion about the lack of support for d20M over in another thread.

Sure you may already possess the majority of the D20 rules but plain Jane or Harry might not and D20 Modern may appeal to them more than D&D so asking them to pony up at least 70 dollar (a PHB and a Modern core book) is a huge mistake. D&D just requires someone to invest in a PHB.

Let's not forget that the SRDs for both games are free.

Having WotC shift around the content so that d20M was all "modern" and the D&D-isms were all in the UA setting book wouldn't be asking anyone to shell out any more than they are now (given that the odds are pretty good that gamers so taken with the "urban fantasy" thing are probably going to buy UA).

It would, however, probably have made the d20M fans who aren't inetersted in UA a lot happier with the product. Two companies (RPG Objects and Mongoose) have released FX-free versions of the core d20M rules; apparently, there is demand for such a thing.

 

[jaerdaph]

Two companies (RPG Objects and Mongoose) have released FX-free versions of the core d20M rules; apparently, there is demand for such a thing.

I saw the Mongoose Modern Pocket Player's Handbook today. It has all the FX rules and the Telepath, Battle Mind, Mage and Accolyte FX advanced classes (no Shadow Slayer or Occultist though, nor any classes from Urban Arcana). As a side note, I'm not sure how much if any of the errata made available in the Modern SRD update a few months ago made it in - for example, the Strong hero Ignore Hardness talent tree still only ignores 1 point of an object's hardness each time you take something from it - the revised Modern SRD with the errata bumps that up to 2 points each time.

 

[wingsandsword]

Things I don't want to see in d20M 2.0 (er 3.5), uh Revised, uh whatever. . .

1. More detail for guns. Sorry, I'm bored to tears by all the gun experts who love to debate the petty details of firearms and want ultra-realistic rules for guns with exacting stats for every weapon ever made. d20 is somewhat abstract. In D&D a wakizashi and a gladius are both a "short sword", a zwiehander and a claymore are both "Two-Handed Swords", and Katana are just Masterwork Bastard Swords. Weapon entries in d20 are supposed to be somewhat abstracted. I would personally rather see weapon entries like "9mm Auto Pistol" or ".38 Special Revolver" than a specific entry for everything ever stamped out (I know I'm probably outnumbered in this opinion though)

2. Re-inventing the wheel. I'm happy with the base-classes as-is, and the general system of Base, Advanced and Prestige class. I like the modularity of Talents, I like the encouragement of multiclassing. I love Occupations.

3. Yet more D&Disms. I don't like my d20 Modern being "D&D in the modern day". I don't want the basic model of the game to be presumed "It's the real world, only with magic, and orcs, and monsters, but nobody notices all the magic stuff", like with Shadow Chasers and UA.

Things I want to see in d20M2

1. More modern monsters. Sasquatch, Grey Aliens, and other creatures of modern mythology and urban legend were relegated to the Menace Manual, while Illithid and Displacer Beasts (both signature D&D creatures, even to the point of being PI) were in the d20M core book. Ditch the D&D PI creatures are inherenly tied to D&D, and add monsters everybody will know on sight.

2. Balancing the FX classes. They gave us 6 FX classes in the core, technically designed for three different settings (but from most of what I've seen, if people use one, they use most all of them). The problem is, that they made the classes imbalanced with each other. Occultist especially. Revise occultist.

3. More feats, like some from UA (Jack of All Trades).

4. The equipment chapter from UA. That should have been in the core rules anyway.

5. The non-FX AdC's from UA (Archaic Weaponmaster, Thrasher), Non-FX versions of the AdC's that didn't need FX (Arcane Arranger, Shadowjack, Shadow Hunter), like the versions in the MPC.

6. More implied flexibility. d20M seems as-written to support modern high-fantasy gaming, but the rules are so flexible they can be used for almost anything.

7. Prestige Classes in the core rules. I've met a lot of people who think d20M doesnt' have PrC's, or isn't supposed to, because they aren't in the core book, they are in UA.

I'll agree that I'd like most of the D&D aspects moved to a UA style book. Yes, people play Modern without playing D&D, but who plays a game with hunting Orcs & Illithid through an office building with +1 Pistols and hasn't played D&D? Make the d20M book more versatile, and more non-FX, and have a separate book made for FX-heavy games (like UACS).

I wish they would also make single-book sourcebooks for other settings, like a d20M Dark Matter books (well, the MM was almost that already, since it had most of the creatures and a lot of the organizations).

In general I'm happy with d20M and don't see an overwhelming need for a new version (unlike OCR Star Wars, which desperately needed the revision). A reorganization and expansion could be very nice, but I hope to not be forced to the wall with a "3.5" situation for d20M for quite some time.

Honestly, I once met somebody at my FLGS who thought that Urban Arcana was d20M 2nd Edition, because it looked like it had a lot of the same stuff (Equipment, Advanced Classes, Spells, ect), Urban Arcana was already in the d20M core rules, and the books looked similar. He was ranting about how WotC produced a 2nd version of d20 Modern less than a year after the original version, and he seemed somewhat confused when I corrected him.