Damage Reduction vs. Two Weapon Fighting

[Scion]

Gah.. boards ate my post.. that will cause me to be much less nice in this one because of time constraints

Swallow whole: find a rules reference saying that you cannot get a weapon while in the beasts gut and that will be a rule that will kill most pc's. As in my experience most pc's dont go around holding a light weapon anyway (wizards are usually quarterstaff or crossbow, clerics usually some sort of sword and board combo with their dieties weapon or a nice mace, archers have bows, melee types have so many different choices it is hard to say which path they will go.. especially with the substandard twf)

Basilisk said I am trying to have it both ways, I am not, the thf already do so there is no need for me to try anything.

They can have a shield (via animated shield or a spell or possibly feats) and it costs less than the twf under most circumstances.

weapon (2k)*(+#)^2
armor (1k)*(+#)^2

thf = weapon + animated shield = (2k)*(+X)^2 + (1k)*(+Y+2)^2
twf = 2 weapons = 2*(2k)*(+X)^2
twf (shield) = 2 weapons + shield = 2*(2k)*(+X)^2 + (1k)*(+Y)^2

(X,Y)
thf (2,2) = 8k + 16k = 24k
twf (2,0) = 2*8k = 16k
twf (shield) (2,2) = 2*8k + 4k = 20k

thf (4,4) = 32k + 36k = 68k
twf (4,0) = 2*32k = 72k
twf (shield) (4,4) = 2*32k + 16k = 88k

thf (10,8) = 200k + 100k = 300k
twf (10,0) = 2*200k = 400k
twf (shield) (10,10) = 2*200k + 100k = 500k

Now you could cut down the plus's on the twf style in order to make the costs more even in gp value, but then you fall even farther behind in offense, defense, or both.


Roleplaying choices deal with doing what you want to with a character no matter the cost. Chooseing twf style and going with it no matter if it is inferior or not constitutes a roleplaying choice, if you were only going by the numbers then you wouldnt have choosen it so it cant be a mechanics choice.

Twf is flavorful, just as much as thf, sword and board, or any other style out there. They all have their own flavor, now they all just need to have their own strengths and weaknesses across the board to all be viable choices. In order to make the choice still roleplaying, but useful no matter what you pick, or a mechanics choice in trying to be slightly better in one area. Not a choice of, 'do I want to really suck at everything but look cool or do I want to contribute more to the group'


As soon as you actually point out some parts of twf that are 'more' flexible than thf I'll look them over, until then though....


Sneak attack is impressive, but at higher levels it rarely comes into play. Almost all creatures are resistant or immune, or can become resistant or immune if they desire to do so.

Almost everything I've said above starts to kick in at higher levels, if your games never go above 8th level then you might not see a problem. This is because the cost:benefit ratio is still not too bad. At the lower plus's for equipment the cost disparities hurt a little but not much, the feat cost is only 1 so far so that isnt too bad, and there really arent many creatures with DR.

At the higher levels though it really sucks, you just keep hitting over and over again the diminishing returns for your money and feats which show up in damage potential, defense, and other areas.

 

[Enkhidu]

I keep seeing this come up over and over, and fail to see why so many people are missing the more obvious answers:

Problem - THF are not hampered by AC loss because of Animated sheilds.

Solution - No more Animated Shields. If that's too drastic a change for you, then Animated Shields - when in use - act exactly as if the shield was physically wielded. This means that a THF can't have a 2nd hand on his weapon for the all powerful X2 Power Attack and x1.5 Str bonus (note that in this special case, I'd still allow THF to occur, simply without the extra bennies of standard TWF).

Problem 2 - TWF is hampered by DR.

Solution - New combat manuever called "Coordinated Strike." You may combine one off-hand attack with one on hand attack: all damage done with the Coordinated Strike counts as if made from the same source for the purposes of DR and massive damage. A Coordinated Strike counts as a Full Attack action, and both attacks are made with your full attack bonus, modified by the penalties for two weapon fighting.

Am I missing something here, or is it really just this simple?

 

[LGodamus]

I don't know if you play in FR or use the supplements, but they have a new magical porperty in "Underdark" entitled Metalline. It is a +1 adjustmant I believe, and makes the weapon change to ANY type of metal, I believe AT WILL. That reduces the extra weapons need. What is also fun, is they have another property called Sizing but that is for another time/question....

this and sure striking overcomes all the other things besides materials...so with both you can beat any DR

 

[Belbarrus]

The problem that I encountered is an Archer-Ranger versus damage reduction. I have Quiver of Ehlonna and 3 types of arrows: Mithral, Silver and Cold-iron, and my bow is magical, so I cover a fair number of DRs. But if I encounter something like DR 10/Good, then I am pooched. My damage is 1d8 (longbow) + 1d6 (shock) + 4 (+1 for magic bow and +3 for strength), so I am doing 6 - 18 damage. Wtih DR of 10, this really bites.

The party also included a Barbarian with Power attack and a Greataxe, he could take -5 to hit and this bonus damage alone would negate the DR. That's when I realized that ranged people are sunk. There is no equivalent to Power Attack for ranged attacks.

B

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Problem - THF are not hampered by AC loss because of Animated sheilds.

Solution - No more Animated Shields. If that's too drastic a change for you, then Animated Shields - when in use - act exactly as if the shield was physically wielded. This means that a THF can't have a 2nd hand on his weapon for the all powerful X2 Power Attack and x1.5 Str bonus (note that in this special case, I'd still allow THF to occur, simply without the extra bennies of standard TWF).

A lot of DMs do not allow Animated magic shields, as you suggest. There are a lot of weird loopholes and balance issues that make them more trouble than they are worth to the DM. Can I just leave it floating near me for 11 years straight? Can a mook just grab it and run away? Is there an AoO for attacking it? How quickly can it move? What if I DDoor?

 

[Scion]

A lot of DMs do not allow Animated magic shields, as you suggest. There are a lot of weird loopholes and balance issues that make them more trouble than they are worth to the DM. Can I just leave it floating near me for 11 years straight? Can a mook just grab it and run away? Is there an AoO for attacking it? How quickly can it move? What if I DDoor?

None of those issues are any more complicated than ioun stones or regular shields.

Even if people disallow animated shields that hurts twf just as much, unless they are a combination of sword and board and twf.

There are feats from several sources which allow you to use armor 'better', I think one of them gives you a +2 bonus to your armor. ::shrugs:: there are ways for everything. Thf and twf are at roughly the same ac either way so that point is moot, of course if you combine twf and s&s then the character is down even more feats. Like I said, at some point there has to be a breaking point.

 

[Staffan]

The problem that I encountered is an Archer-Ranger versus damage reduction. I have Quiver of Ehlonna and 3 types of arrows: Mithral, Silver and Cold-iron, and my bow is magical, so I cover a fair number of DRs. But if I encounter something like DR 10/Good, then I am pooched. My damage is 1d8 (longbow) + 1d6 (shock) + 4 (+1 for magic bow and +3 for strength), so I am doing 6 - 18 damage. Wtih DR of 10, this really bites.

The party also included a Barbarian with Power attack and a Greataxe, he could take -5 to hit and this bonus damage alone would negate the DR. That's when I realized that ranged people are sunk. There is no equivalent to Power Attack for ranged attacks.

B

Solution: Ask your cleric friend for an Align Weapon spell. D&D is meant to be a team game - some threats have to be faced together.

 

[frisbeet]

To be brief, as I must for fear of board-post-munching: I compare the average full attack damage/round for a 18 Str 20 Dex Lvl 12 Fighter. Feats of TWF, iTWF, gTWF, WF, gWF, WS, gWS, iC for short sword (SS). My argument: better off wielding two extra damage SS than equal value Plain-Jane enchantment swords, or a two-handed weapon which you're not an expert at. All those silly feats matter, and greatly diminish the value of carrying around other weapons, even in the face of DR.

DR for this example is 10. 2nd column from left is the optimum PA value for which the Greatsword (GS) <damage> is shown.

AC (SS+1,1d6)x2 (SS+2)x2 GS+2 PA GS+2
10	42.8	28.9	10	53.4
11	42.0	28.9	10	49.3
12	41.3	28.4	9	45.4
13	40.5	27.9	9	41.6
14	39.8	27.4	8	38.0
15	39.0	26.9	8	34.5
16	37.5	26.3	7	31.2
17	36.0	25.3	7	28.1
18	34.5	24.3	6	25.1
19	33.0	23.3	6	22.3
20	31.5	22.3	5	19.7
21	29.3	21.3	5	17.2
22	27.0	19.8	4	14.9
23	24.8	18.2	5	13.1
24	22.5	16.7	5	11.4
25	20.3	15.2	4	9.9
26	17.8	13.7	4	8.5
27	15.5	12.0	3	7.2
28	13.3	10.4	3	6.0
29	11.8	8.9	4	4.9
30	10.3	7.9	12	4.5
31	8.7	6.9	12	4.5
32	7.1	5.7	12	4.5
33	5.7	4.6	12	4.5
34	4.9	3.7	12	4.5
35	4.2	3.2	12	4.5
36	3.2	2.7	12	4.5
37	2.4	2.0	12	4.5
38	1.7	1.4	12	4.5
39	1.7	1.0	12	4.5
40	1.7	1.0	12	4.5