Damage Reduction vs. Two Weapon Fighting

[Elder-Basilisk]

With improvd buckler defense the twf is at least 4 feats behind thf.

The shield will cost as much as a shield and a weapon. So you will have to pay for 2 weapons, a shield, and armor.. just to begin with what you want to use. Vs the thf who needs one weapon, an animated shield, and an armor.

Not so. Stat out the costs:

At low levels:
+1 greatsword: 2350
+1 longsword and masterwork (attack and defense) light shield: 2760 or so.

At mid levels:
+1 holy greatsword: 18,350gp
+1 flaming shortsword and +2 defense/+1 bane offense heavy shield: 20,467gp or so.

At high levels:
+5 flaming burst bane greatsword: 128,350
+4 returning frost light hammer and +5 defense, +2 (offense) defending heavy shield of shock: 129, 770 or so.

Two weapons of slightly lower enhancement plus a shield come out to only slightly (at nearly all levels, a negligable amount) than the THF weapon.

If we try to get the high level THF an animated shield to equalize any AC advantage (a rather cheesy IMO enhancement to begin with and one that won't be universally available; although it must be taken into account for such comparisons, it is not clear to me that "this equipment gives a THF an advantage" is a deciding factor in the comparison--especially when we refuse to consider the same factor (can anyone say two bane shortswords of wounding or paired sunblades?) in favor of TWF), the numbers work out like this:

At mid levels:
+1 holy greatsword and +2 heavy animated shield: 34,507gp
+1 Axiomatic shortsword and +2 defense/+1 bane offense heavy shield: 30,767gp or so.

At high levels:
+5 flaming burst bane greatsword and +5 animated heavy shield: 177,507
+5 Anarchic light pick and +5 defense, +3 (offense) defending heavy shield of shock: 173,700 and change

The cost of an animated shield that equals the AC of the TWF (shield) fighter (Assuming that the shield fighter doesn't use the defending ability on his weapon), allows the TWF to equalize the primary weapon enhancements or make very significant upgrades to his off-hand weapon.

Mithril breast plate has a max dex bonus of +5. Your examples had a lowest dex of 12, +6 item (cheap at these levels, especially for the benefit) gets up you to 18 which is a +4. No huge loss. 1 point? Even if you can get the ac difference up as high as 4 (with one point here, and another from two weapon defense and another from going defensive or something) the amount of damage and hitting potential still favors the thf. If it is by 4 then the thf is winning out by an incredibly huge amount.

Again, your argument only points out that THF types can take steps to equalize a disadvantage here. And your argument about +6 items being cheap, like the assumption that the THF will have an animated shield, assumes high levels. +6 items aren't cheap for characters at levels 1-10.

What mobility change? they are both wearing the same armor, they will both have the same speed. If anything the thf has better mobility, he has more feats to spread around to get more options..

Nonsense. They don't both wear the same armor because different armors offer different advantages. (You previously argued that the THF equalizes his AC without increasing dex by wearing fullplate). If they both wear the same armor, the THF will have a lower AC. If they wear different armors, the THF will have less manueverability.

Did you see the AC on that dinosaur you mentioned??? 14. The thf could power attack for 10 and still have a reasonable chance of hitting with his 4th attack in a round (as in, needing a 2 or higher). 4 attacks that all hit on a 2 or higher doing at least 20 points of damage each cuts away almost half of its hp.. before adding in strength or even weapon damage!

Did you see the CR on that dinosaur? Any THF fighter that has four attacks per round who goes up against it ought to paste it by blinking. If he doesn't, something is wrong. However, I assure you that the issue is very different if you run an 8th level THF against the T-Rex.

As far as the rest of those grappling monsters go everyone has a hard time with them. Even your twf will have a bad time of it, very likely will be slaughtered with the rest. At best he'll be able to do some damage before he dies while the others cant do any damage, but everyone has a contingency plan of some sort. Are you saying that your twf is better during a grapple than at other times? still doesnt seem to be.

Nope. I'm saying that he's slightly less screwed--especially by monsters who swallow whole. And, while others point out that the monster can generally pin the round after it starts the grapple, one round of damage from the TWF will often make a big difference in the outcome of a battle.

All of the twf I have seen on the board are always far behind in every sense except in very specific circumstances. You really have to pull out some very specific builds in order to get the real power out of it, and outside of those it just doesnt work very well.

Just because something requires "specific builds" to get "real power" doesn't mean there's something wrong with it. That's true of nearly every option in D&D. Anyone can take an iconic half-orc barbarian but if you want to get the real power out of it, it'll take some specialized builds. Anyone can take an iconic elf archer and make it work but if you want to get the real power out of it, it'll take some specialized builds.

Similarly, anyone can take the iconic TWF types--the single classed ranger (incidentally, the single classed ranger using TWF against a favored enemy blows nearly every other fighter type out of the water in terms of damage/full attack--it's not even close), the paired weapon, or the double weapon fighter, or the dual wielding rogue and make a character who's good enough. However, to get the real power out of it you need some specialized builds.

3 feats just to 'almost keep up sometimes' with someone who spent 0

That line alone says everything. If someone is going to pile up that many feats into a certain feat chain they should be 'better' at doing whatever they are trying to do than someone else going along a similar line. If they only come 'up to par', which from what I've seen hasnt even been shown by all of your examples, then something is seriously wrong.

Well, every example anyone has tossed out for the THF includes Power Attack so make that 3-1. And, if the THF goes for Close Quarters Fighting, it's 3-2. That's not too bad considering the power that you can get out of some of those specialized builds. What you seem to want to do is compare a maximized THF to a standard TWF. Instead, you should compare a maximized TWF to a maximized THF. (If you want animated shields for the THF, give wounding or vorpal weapons to the TWF, for instance).

 

[The_Nighthawk]

well

Some stuff where thrown in here and there.

I am sleepy so I will try to make it short.

A 32 point buy fighter with a greataxe and power attack will always be more dangerous at fighting than a 32 point buy fighter dual wielding with the three two weapon fighting feats and the two weapon defence feat.

It was calculated by various person on the wizards of the coast board using spreadcheats and it shows that despite the increased cost of the two weapon user in term of weapons, feats, and skills, he will deal in average less damage than the greataxe wielder with only the expenditure of one feat.

While the fighter with two shortswords will need to spend 4 feats just to keep up, the the other will have only one to spend, power attack, able the to select 3 others useful feats like weapon focus and specialization.

Strangely, the rogue are the one that benefits the most from two weapon fighting. Since when the most difficult fighting style is more dangerous in the hand of a rogue than in the hand of a skillfull and dextrous fighter ?

That's what I am complaining about. The stuff about the dinosaurs and others things are too far away to got my attention tonight.

That's why I want to change the TWF rules in my world. By the way, anyone with good ideas on the things ?

 

[Plane Sailing]

That's why I want to change the TWF rules in my world. By the way, anyone with good ideas on the things ?

It would probably be in your best interests to start a discussion thread on this subject in the house rules forum, that is a much better place for discussing potential new solutions to rules "problems"

Cheers

 

[Darklone]

Nope, I'd rather have a look at existing discussions there

Some good ideas have been listed here and there already.

 

[Scion]

Hey again basilisk.

Two weapons of slightly lower enhancement plus a shield come out to only slightly (at nearly all levels, a negligable amount) than the THF weapon.

Out of all of the comparisons (and there were a lot) this is the line that matters.

You are using one weapon of lesser enhancement in order to equalize costs. That right there proves the point I made earlier

weapon +X and shield +(Y+2) costs less than 2xweapon+X and shield +Y

If you give the twf a weapon of lesser enhancement then his damage dealing output drops even farther (ie gets even worse).

Go ahead and make your comparisons with whichever combos of weapons you like (sunblades you said?), lets see how those turn out. Until then though, all of you comparisons of cost just proved what I was already saying, it costs the twf more to keep up with the thf.

Again, your argument only points out that THF types can take steps to equalize a disadvantage here. And your argument about +6 items being cheap, like the assumption that the THF will have an animated shield, assumes high levels. +6 items aren't cheap for characters at levels 1-10.

Greater twf takes BAB 11+. Failing that (for your 1 - 10 comparison) the thf will use an armor that will reduce some of his speed but gains a much larger AC boost, so the thf will either have equivalent or equal AC. I stated that out earlier in the thread. While this does reduce mobility (point twf) it is also useful when flat footed (point thf). Depending on the campaign one might be better than the other.

Did you see the CR on that dinosaur? Any THF fighter that has four attacks per round who goes up against it ought to paste it by blinking. If he doesn't, something is wrong. However, I assure you that the issue is very different if you run an 8th level THF against the T-Rex.

Great, but none of this has any bearing. Of course an 8th level guy is going to have a harder time than a 20th level guy. Sure. But then neither of those characters will have a chance of succeeding at a grapple check against the trex so it DOESNT MATTER what weapons they are holding. The trex will simply pin and then destroy, or swallow (at which point they will both try to cut their ways out, the thf carrying a dagger will get out in a round, just like the twf)

Plus, as I stated earlier, even if the twf is better in grapple situations that would be a point for twf. Of course then you look at pretty much every other combat manuever and thf is better.. so +1 twf, +8 for thf?

Well, every example anyone has tossed out for the THF includes Power Attack so make that 3-1. And, if the THF goes for Close Quarters Fighting, it's 3-2. That's not too bad considering the power that you can get out of some of those specialized builds. What you seem to want to do is compare a maximized THF to a standard TWF. Instead, you should compare a maximized TWF to a maximized THF. (If you want animated shields for the THF, give wounding or vorpal weapons to the TWF, for instance).

They have listed other feats because the twf is 3 feats behind. Three. It is NOT 3:1, it is twf has used 3 feats to get as proficient as the thf is at 0. At which point people have said, 'well, if we take these feats then the thf will be even farther ahead in situation X'.

Plus your build above needs 4 feats minimum. 3 twf feats and then one to use your shield as a weapon.

I cannot compare a maximised TWF to a maximised THF because the thf has too many options from which to choose, some are perfect for situation 1, some for 2, some for 3, some for a combination of several. THAT IS THE POINT! The twf is three feats in the whole (or 4 for the one you gave above) and the thf gets to pick and choose from all sorts of feats to make him better at things.

How about: weapon focus, weapon specialzation, and improved critical? These are incredibly generic feats. Now the thf is even farther ahead on damage, crits more, and hits more. Oop, we need a fourth feat as well.

Oh wait, lets forget those three, and pick up the entire great cleave feat tree! Now at least some of the time (incredibly heavily campaign dependent) the thf will get more attacks in a given round than the twf! Whether full attacking or not. Plus the thf can use cleave much more easily than twf.

How many different combination of feats are out there that are possible for the fighter is difficult to say. It is a lot. Showing that even after 3 (or 4) feats the twf still does less damage, has the same ac, and needs to spend more money should just finish the whole discussion.

 

[jgsugden]

Man, these threads drag on ... and on ... and on ... and tend to say nothing new. I'm amazed at how many people have the endurance to stick with them.

2 weapon fighting vs 2 handed weapon fighting is not easy to compare. There are a lot of campaign specific issues that have an effect on the comparison. Simply running the numbers with no context does no good. There are too many side issues (number of encounters where DR can not be avoided, cleaving, what items are available, percentage of attacks in which a full attack can be made, degree of information known about foes for use in optimal power attack use, etc ...) to compare these styles with any degree of utility.

A lot of the advantages of two weapon fighting are hard to see unless you see it is action.

The *best* way to figure out if two weapon fighting works as a balanced concept in your game under the normal rules is to actually try it out. Toss an NPC into the game that can tag along with the party for a small section of the journey. Have this NPC try to be effective using the two weapon fighting styles. In my games, I actually found a PC fighter using two weapons to be very effective he was at a disadvantage in some battles, but proved to be far more effective than the two handed fighting PC in other battles.

 

[slingbld]

Ok, just read this entrire thread. <head spinning>
I can see how 3.5 um, complicated the field a bit. Then again, in the game I'm in. we have 3 archers & each one has a handfull of special material arrows....

 

[Darklone]

Scion: A THF dude who gets swallowed will cut his way out when he carries a dagger with him? He can't draw it nor wield it inside...

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Scion,

Qualitatively the big picture is:
THF: high offense, low defense
S&S: low offense, high defense
TWF: medium offense, medium defense

If you insist on comparing average damage between styles I think your approach is fundamentally wrongheaded. If what you really care about is big damage, you should be using THF. The real strength of TWF lies elsewhere. No offense intended, but until you acknowledge the peculiar strengths of TWF it will be difficult to believe you have thought this through carefully.

If you want to argue that TWF does not quite get the bang for the buck for each feat compared to other styles, I could see agreeing. As I said before, I think they get nickeled and dimed a bit -- putting TWF about 1 to 1 1/2 feats behind the power curve in the long wrong.

Consider the "entrance cost" of each style:
THF: Power Attack (1 feat)
S&S: none (0 feats)
TWF: Two-Weapon Fighting (1 feat)
Slap on a buckler and you have a very flexible style. Everything works so far.

The "problems" only arise when we start superoptimizing at progressively higher levels. Since optimization is a complex art, we should stop and ask: What are we trying to optimize for?

IMNSHO, "damage" is an inappropriate answer.

What is your answer?

 

[Delgar]

Here is a question:

Can a twf attack with say a longsword and armor spikes (off-hand) and keep his shield for armor class?

Delgar