Damage Reduction vs. Two Weapon Fighting

[dinsdale]

There is one other balancing effects for DR and TWF that I don't think anyone has mentioned (or if they did, I missed it):

Your two weapons can be of different materials/enchantments optimized to bypass different DR types.

For example, an neutral NPC I statted up for a friend's run had a holy weapon in one hand and unholy in the other. No matter which side he was fighting at the time (good or evil), one of his weapons would be likely be optimized. He doesn't need to take the time to figure out who is attacking him and reach into his golfbag. He just attacks and if one of the weapons seems to bite in more than the other, he focuses on using that weapon.

 

[Shadeus]

Just because a character's primary focus is two-weapon fighting, it doesn't mean they have two weapons glued to their hands (in most cases, depending on how cruel your DM is ). If they come up against a wizard with stoneskin, better hope that one of their weapons is adamantine or time to pull out that greatsword that's been collecting dust in their golfbag.

It's akin to a 10 Str halfling that is a trip specialist complaining that he/she cannot trip a titan. Yeah, that's right. Your "specialization" doesn't have to work on all foes.

 

[Scion]

I hate to pull the topic off discussion, though this is still close in some ways.

Well, its weaknesses are somewhat diminished by the animated shield but, in no particular order:

AC--the typical two handed weapon fighter has great difficulty attaining anything better than a passable AC. The lack of a shield, buckler, or defensive feats make THF, without exception, the most offensively oriented of the fighting styles. (TWF can use a buckler, Two Weapon Defense, or a defending off-hand weapon for AC; the ThF can't).

two weapon defense, +1 to ac for one feat. Not going to help a whole lot on the ac department there, also only works when weilding both weapons.

thf and twf both lack a shield unless they go for an animated one, and then the thf is ahead, he only had to buy one weapon after all. Twf cannot use a shield at the same time, from the srd: You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round.

mithril breast plate AC 5, max dex 5 = 10
mithril full plate AC 8, max dex 3 = 11
looks like the thf is actually slightly ahead. there are probably better builds, those are just the first two I grabbed.

defending weapon is nice, but you kill your ability to hit and deal damage with it. So you are even farther behind in that area, a regular shield is better.

Premium on strength--the typical ThF has a very high strength score and necessarily so. His style depends upon dishing out as much damage as possible and as quickly as possible. Since he only benefits once from WS and GWS, he gets most of his damage from his strength bonus. Of course, all melee fighters depend upon strength but the ThF needs more than other fighting styles in order to remain competitive. His lower AC means that he will take damage more quickly than other fighters and consequently, he needs to dish out damage much more quickly if he's to maintain an advantage.

The thf wont tend to have much worse of an ac at all, at least nothing you have shown so far says that there will be any major difference. the twf needs a 19+ dex, he wont have much strength left over. Falling farther behind without a lot or even any ac bonus. Both str and dex are good for a lot of things though, so that is ok.

Grappling--the ThF's weapons are not usable in a grapple. Most TWF characters wield two light weapons and are thus able to continue attacking in a grapple. Most TwF sword and board fighters are also able to attack in a grapple (either light weapon+heavy shield or light shield+one handed weapon--either way, there's one weapon available for attacking).

grappling, thf, they have a higher strength so are harder to grapple. (side note, if you are a thf, CARRY A DAGGER OR SHORT SWORD, a few points of enchantment cost negligable amounts when compared to the alternative)

thf are effectively better in almost every way, except possibly for a rogue, and that is about it.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I hate to pull the topic off discussion, though this is still close in some ways.

two weapon defense, +1 to ac for one feat. Not going to help a whole lot on the ac department there, also only works when weilding both weapons.

thf and twf both lack a shield unless they go for an animated one, and then the thf is ahead, he only had to buy one weapon after all. Twf cannot use a shield at the same time, from the srd: You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round.

mithril breast plate AC 5, max dex 5 = 10
mithril full plate AC 8, max dex 3 = 11
looks like the thf is actually slightly ahead. there are probably better builds, those are just the first two I grabbed.

defending weapon is nice, but you kill your ability to hit and deal damage with it. So you are even farther behind in that area, a regular shield is better.

Your analysis leaves out a few options:
1. Buckler (possibly with Improved Buckler Defense (CW)).
2. Imp Shield Bash Sword and Sheild TWF

Both of these allow the TWF character to get a decent AC much more easily than the THF. The TWF character doesn't necessarily have an AC advantage over the ThF but can have it if he chooses to.

The Defending weapon in the off-hand is another case of this. A TWF with Improved Buckler Defense (or using a Defending spiked shield with Imp Shield Bash) can have AC from both the weapon AND the shield if he wants it. And in situations where AC is more valuable than damage, that can be very significant.

Also, if we are to assume that the ThF wears fullplate to mitigate his AC disadvantage (not all do--I've noticed a pronounced tendency for barbarians to wear chain shirts so as to be able to get surrounded more quickly and/or be further from the cleric by the time they get into trouble), he adds a mobility disadvantage to the equation.

The thf wont tend to have much worse of an ac at all, at least nothing you have shown so far says that there will be any major difference. the twf needs a 19+ dex, he wont have much strength left over. Falling farther behind without a lot or even any ac bonus. Both str and dex are good for a lot of things though, so that is ok.

I'm not sure I agree with this. By the time GTWF becomes an option, the 19 dex is easily achievable with gloves of dex +4 and a 15 starting dex. That's a little bit more than the ThF in a point buy system but not necessarily too much. It will probably amount to one or two points of strength difference assuming that both characters are built with similar priorities in mind.

grappling, thf, they have a higher strength so are harder to grapple. (side note, if you are a thf, CARRY A DAGGER OR SHORT SWORD, a few points of enchantment cost negligable amounts when compared to the alternative)

thf are effectively better in almost every way, except possibly for a rogue, and that is about it.

The problem with a ThF carrying a dagger or shortsword for use in a grapple is that it takes a grapple check to draw them. When the thing grappling you is a purple worm or a Tyranosaurus that just swallowed you whole, you're pretty unlikely to succeed no matter what your strength is. Armor spikes or spiked gauntlets can mitigate the ThF's grapple disadvantage but the real advantage for the TwF is that he can continue to use his primary weapon in the grapple. If I'm 11th level, I'd much rather use my +3 Frost handaxe against the worm than my masterwork (or maybe +1) armor spikes/Spiked gauntlet. This is especially true when considering that the WS, GWS, etc apply to the one but not the other.

Effective ThF characters are much easier to construct than effective TWF characters (duh, grab a barbarian, add greataxe, sautee with cleave and you're done) but that doesn't mean that TWF characters have to be rogues to be effective.

 

[Spatula]

However, demonstrating a disproportionate effect that significantly modifies expected damage per round in common melee situations that are likely to be found in most camapigns (for example, characters of X level versus CR X monsters from the MM analyzed over a spectrum of levels/CRs 1 - 20) can show an imbalance in games that tend to use MM monsters of CR = party level.

That analysis was done back in the 3.0/3.5 transition period. I read a number of them and worked a few examples up myself. They were far from scientifically perfect, but they were good enough to show the trends.

My point was not to challenge anybody's ability to do math. My point was to say that most people don't notice the cumulative effect that power attack and two weapon fighting created because the damage per attack was not ludicrously high. It was only the cumulative effect of the attacks that made the damage unreasonable.

Even with 3.0 PA, the two-weapon fighter's average damage was still less than that of the two-handed fighter's. Yes, 3.0 PA was bad for greataxe wielders and great for twin-short sword wielders, but the greataxe wielder was still doing more total damage, on average, per round.

That's not even getting into intangibles like average damage when you can't perform a full attack and average damage on AoOs. And not to mention that the greataxe fighter has extra feats and extra money to spend.

3.5 fixed the PA problem for the 2-handers. There was certainly no game balance reason to penalize the 2-weapon guys as well, since they were already behind the damage-dealing curve (even with 3.0 PA).

 

[Scion]

Your analysis leaves out a few options:

ok, lets check them out.

1. Buckler (possibly with Improved Buckler Defense (CW)).

I dont know what Improved bucker defense is, sounds like another feat in a long line of feats twf needs. I will repost what I posted in my last post.

""Twf cannot use a shield at the same time, from the srd: You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round.""

So if you are wearing a buckler and attack you get a -1 to all of your attack rolls and you dont get the ac bonus from the buckler. In other words, no buckler.

2. Imp Shield Bash Sword and Sheild TWF

I think I've seen this somewhere before as well, not sure where though. But dont you lose your ac bonus? if not then you have spent yet another feat in an attempt to make twf good. So that would be a minimum of 4 feats, hopefully the thf can do something interesting with those. Sounds like a feat for sword and boarders though, or a way to make the two forms into one. Didnt someone say that there werent any feats for sword and board?

Both of these allow the TWF character to get a decent AC much more easily than the THF. The TWF character doesn't necessarily have an AC advantage over the ThF but can have it if he chooses to.

If either of the feats you mention allow you to get the ac bonus at the same time as making your attacks then there could/will be/should be the equivalent for thf. In any event, just going by core stuff (which is what I have) you cannot use a buckler at the same time as twf in the way you desire. The buckler itself says so.

The Defending weapon in the off-hand is another case of this. A TWF with Improved Buckler Defense (or using a Defending spiked shield with Imp Shield Bash) can have AC from both the weapon AND the shield if he wants it. And in situations where AC is more valuable than damage, that can be very significant.

defending spiked sheild plus 2 feats and then the 3 for twf all just to make twf worthwhile? I am confused.. are we still talking about twf being good or sucking? How many feats do you have to have just to make the thing worthwhile? the sheild spike would cost +5/defending = +6, and then whatever points you want to put into the actual sheild itself.. plus having to have at least 2 extra feats just to be able to use it. Plus we were supposed to be discussion twf, not sword and board techniques.

Also, if we are to assume that the ThF wears fullplate to mitigate his AC disadvantage (not all do--I've noticed a pronounced tendency for barbarians to wear chain shirts so as to be able to get surrounded more quickly and/or be further from the cleric by the time they get into trouble), he adds a mobility disadvantage to the equation..

We arent talking mobility disadvantage or advantage, we were talking ac choices. If you want to be a barbarian thf (which barbarians almost always are thf from what I've seen) then they can both wear mithril breast plate, suffer no movement penalties, and have equivalent ac except when the barb is rageing.. and when he is rageing and you arent he'll be the combat master hands down.

I'm not sure I agree with this. By the time GTWF becomes an option, the 19 dex is easily achievable with gloves of dex +4 and a 15 starting dex. That's a little bit more than the ThF in a point buy system but not necessarily too much. It will probably amount to one or two points of strength difference assuming that both characters are built with similar priorities in mind.

ok, 15 starting dex, what starting strength? if you put points into dex when he puts his into strength you are falling farther behind, if you put your points into str then if you finese (to take advantage of very high dex) then you'll need two high attributes. say a 16 starting strength and 15 starting dex.. now what is your con? int? wis? cha? by the time you have gotten past the first three things you really need you are nearly out of points for most point buy.. the thf can mostly ignore dex, lots more points for things like wisdom to help with those will saves, or int to get better skills. ::shrugs:: either you have one more stat that is important or you dont.

The problem with a ThF carrying a dagger or shortsword for use in a grapple is that it takes a grapple check to draw them.

Sure, although there are a few fairly cheap ways to counter this. Grapple is actually about the only thing you've said so far that is a real possibility of a problem. Against creatures of incredible size and strength that prefer to grapple this guy could be at a disadvantage. Unless of course he used some of those extra feats (3? 5? how many does he have to spare right now beyond the twf guy?) to shore up this weakness somehow. Or against that tyranosaur you were talking about, one good round of full attack and power attack and it is probably dead anyway. Its initiative bonus is only +1. The pc very likely has the advantage there. Plus with its size its not like it sneaks up on people very often.

But yeah, grapple could be very bad. Score one against the thf. Now it is only about 20:1. Glad that twf finally got on the board!

I know that is a bit over the top, there are reasons to use each. But the reasons to not use twf are overwhelming when put up against thf. Unless you are a rogue, with some wounding weapons, and a character build around getting as many attacks as possible.. who cares how much damage you do if their con goes to 0? It is a viable build, but generally not nearly as good as the thf in almost every situation.

Effective ThF characters are much easier to construct than effective TWF characters (duh, grab a barbarian, add greataxe, sautee with cleave and you're done) but that doesn't mean that TWF characters have to be rogues to be effective.

I suppose that once enough 3rd party stuff comes out that ups the twf power eventually, and with enough feats, he will become incredibly powerful and cool. Eventually. As it is though he is probably still a ways behind. 3 feats just to get into the game is rough, doing less average damage is rough, not being able to cut through DR as effectively is rough, having to pay for two different weapons is rough, haveing to have high dex and high str is rough, not being able to use power attack effectively anymore hurts now and then.. And then you want to toss on two more feats for shield use, and then weapon focus/specialization for two weapons (sword and sheild)......

At what point is the pile of feats necissary to make it viable just too high?

By all means disagree, it could be different in your campaign world somehow. There are tons of posts that go over the numbers, and they say that once you spend all of the feats necissary to get into the twf club you still only 'might' catch up in damage 'sometimes'. And at the same time your ac is comparable. And the thf has several feats with which to pull off other combat stunts/get better with his weapon. About the only bonus he has is that he could potentiall have two completely different weapons, with twice the chance to have one of them get through some form of DR, this is important sometimes. Along with grappleing sometimes being easier in that you have a weapon to attack with. Of course anyone could spend less than 20k to have a glove of storing or similar item with a cool little weapon that pops out of it. This isnt just the thf problem after all.. some people actually use staves to attack with, like mages.. what are they going to do? better hope someone cuts them out! lol

Ooohh.. I forgot, spiked gauntlet yes.. have one designed to be spiked/locked gauntlet.. if you get swallowed just hit the guy with your spiked gauntlet.. your strength being so high that you should be able to cut your way out in short order, cool

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

ok, lets check them out.
I dont know what Improved bucker defense is, sounds like another feat in a long line of feats twf needs. I will repost what I posted in my last post.

Improved Buckler Defense can be found in Complete Warrior. It has prerequisite: Shield proficiency (so in most cases, it isn't in any long line of feats) and allows a character to retain the Buckler AC bonus while attacking with a weapon in that hand.

I think I've seen this somewhere before as well, not sure where though. But dont you lose your ac bonus? if not then you have spent yet another feat in an attempt to make twf good. So that would be a minimum of 4 feats, hopefully the thf can do something interesting with those. Sounds like a feat for sword and boarders though, or a way to make the two forms into one. Didnt someone say that there werent any feats for sword and board?

Are you talking 3.0 or 3.5 here? Improved Shield Bash is in the 3.5e Player's handbook and it enables a character to retain his shield bonus while making a shield bash attack.

For the record, that's two feats, not four. Two Weapon Fighting and Improved Shield Bash. Or Two Weapon Fighting and Improved Buckler Defense. Later, the character would probably want to get Imp Two Weapon Fighting and Greater Two Weapon Fighting. So, if it is a total of four feats, it's at most four feats over 11 or 12 levels.

If either of the feats you mention allow you to get the ac bonus at the same time as making your attacks then there could/will be/should be the equivalent for thf. In any event, just going by core stuff (which is what I have) you cannot use a buckler at the same time as twf in the way you desire. The buckler itself says so.

Nice try. There isn't. (Unless you count the Staff and Halberd style feats from Complete Warrior but both of those simulate two weapon fighting (rather strangely for the halberd which is not a double weapon). The closest thing for thf is an animated shield.

defending spiked sheild plus 2 feats and then the 3 for twf all just to make twf worthwhile? I am confused.. are we still talking about twf being good or sucking? How many feats do you have to have just to make the thing worthwhile? the sheild spike would cost +5/defending = +6, and then whatever points you want to put into the actual sheild itself.. plus having to have at least 2 extra feats just to be able to use it. Plus we were supposed to be discussion twf, not sword and board techniques.

In case you are actually interested in evaluating the advantages and disadvantages of TwF vs. ThF styles rather than making a polemic against the that design, I'll explain it to you:

Two Weapon Fighting style has a lot of flexibility. A character with the two weapon fighting feats has the option to adopt a defensive stance. He can push his AC very high if he wants to. (with either one extra feat, a +1 equivalent weapon ability for one of his two weapons, or both for cumulative benefit). Alternately, a TWF character can, with very little structural change, be nearly as offensively oriented as a ThF character. (More actually in 3.5--with Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, and Imp TWF--the TWF character can actually pull ahead in the damage/full attack action equation) That flexibility is not available to THF characters. That is a big advantage.

As to these advantages really being afforded by sword and board rather than TWF, there are two errors there. One is assuming that Sword and board and TWF are actually distinct styles. Any TWF character can pick up a buckler or a light shield and, without spending any feats, choose whether to use the offensive focus of TWF or the defensive focus of sword and board on a round by round basis. Similarly, any sword and board character with ranger levels or the requisite dexterity can take one feat and gain the ability to make a two weapon attack with his shield. There is a continuum between offensively focussed TWF and defensively focussed sword and board.

The second is assuming that a character who wields a shortsword in each hand and a buckler on his left hand is primarily a sword and board character. IMO, that character is primarily a TWF character who is just slightly less offensively focussed. If the character picks up Improved Buckler Defense, he might qualify as sword and board but it's certainly not the normal sword and board.

We arent talking mobility disadvantage or advantage, we were talking ac choices. If you want to be a barbarian thf (which barbarians almost always are thf from what I've seen) then they can both wear mithril breast plate, suffer no movement penalties, and have equivalent ac except when the barb is rageing.. and when he is rageing and you arent he'll be the combat master hands down.

Well, as I was saying, if the ThF wears the mithral breastplate, odds are good that the TWF has a better dexterity and therefore an AC advantage (whether or not he takes advantage of the buckler or shield options available to him). This is certainly the case if the ThF wearing the breastplate is a raging barbarian who takes a further AC penalty for rage.

OTOH, if the ThF wears a suit of mithral fullplate thereby most likely equalling the AC of the TWF, the TWF has a mobility advantage. TWF will generally have an advantage in one of those two areas.

ok, 15 starting dex, what starting strength? if you put points into dex when he puts his into strength you are falling farther behind, if you put your points into str then if you finese (to take advantage of very high dex) then you'll need two high attributes. say a 16 starting strength and 15 starting dex.. now what is your con? int? wis? cha? by the time you have gotten past the first three things you really need you are nearly out of points for most point buy.. the thf can mostly ignore dex, lots more points for things like wisdom to help with those will saves, or int to get better skills. ::shrugs:: either you have one more stat that is important or you dont.

OK, let's see. 25 point iconic spread characters.
ThF: Str 15, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8
TWF: Str 13, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8

28 point balanced characters:
ThF Str 16, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 10
TwF Str 14, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 10

28 point maximized characters:
ThF: Str 18, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 8
TwF: Str 16, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 8

The actual difference in strength is not nearly as significant as you imply. In these examples (which I think are fairly typical at low point buys--at higher point buys, the cost of the dexterity needed for TWF is generally two points of strength).

Sure, although there are a few fairly cheap ways to counter this. Grapple is actually about the only thing you've said so far that is a real possibility of a problem. Against creatures of incredible size and strength that prefer to grapple this guy could be at a disadvantage. Unless of course he used some of those extra feats (3? 5? how many does he have to spare right now beyond the twf guy?) to shore up this weakness somehow.

Sure. I'd recommend Combat Reflexes and Close Quarters Fighting (Sword and Fist or Complete Warrior depending upon the edition). However, considering the lower dexterity of many ThF characters, Combat Reflexes is often a very suboptimal choice for them.

Alternately, the ThF could take Imp Unarmed Strike, Imp Grapple, and Clever Wrestling (MotW or Complete Warrior) to improve his grapple check.

Or against that tyranosaur you were talking about, one good round of full attack and power attack and it is probably dead anyway. Its initiative bonus is only +1. The pc very likely has the advantage there. Plus with its size its not like it sneaks up on people very often.

That seems overly optimistic to me. Most Tyranosaurs will not evaporate because of a single full attack (and, unless it's already close to the fighter, he won't be making that full attack). And there are plenty of Imp Grab monsters that DO often get up close and personal. Dire bears, Assassin Vines, Tendriculi, etc

I know that is a bit over the top, there are reasons to use each. But the reasons to not use twf are overwhelming when put up against thf. Unless you are a rogue, with some wounding weapons, and a character build around getting as many attacks as possible.. who cares how much damage you do if their con goes to 0? It is a viable build, but generally not nearly as good as the thf in almost every situation.

Actually, assuming straight up enhancement bonus weapons and full attacks, TWF is very close to ThF in terms of damage/round. It actually pulls ahead at roughly half of levels 1-20 IIRC. However, an analysis that overlooks the possibility of wielding a pair of +1 Holy Wounding Bane weapons is overlooking the possibilities and flexibility of TWF. (Of course, it also overlooks the potential utility of power attack to the THF).

I've played TWF characters and ThF characters. It doesn't seem to me that ThF is an obviously superior option--even for offensively focussed characters. And for those who want flexibility, TWF is a superior road.

 

[Scion]

With improvd buckler defense the twf is at least 4 feats behind thf.

The shield will cost as much as a shield and a weapon. So you will have to pay for 2 weapons, a shield, and armor.. just to begin with what you want to use. Vs the thf who needs one weapon, an animated shield, and an armor.

Mithril breast plate has a max dex bonus of +5. Your examples had a lowest dex of 12, +6 item (cheap at these levels, especially for the benefit) gets up you to 18 which is a +4. No huge loss. 1 point? Even if you can get the ac difference up as high as 4 (with one point here, and another from two weapon defense and another from going defensive or something) the amount of damage and hitting potential still favors the thf. If it is by 4 then the thf is winning out by an incredibly huge amount.

What mobility change? they are both wearing the same armor, they will both have the same speed. If anything the thf has better mobility, he has more feats to spread around to get more options..

Did you see the AC on that dinosaur you mentioned??? 14. The thf could power attack for 10 and still have a reasonable chance of hitting with his 4th attack in a round (as in, needing a 2 or higher). 4 attacks that all hit on a 2 or higher doing at least 20 points of damage each cuts away almost half of its hp.. before adding in strength or even weapon damage!

As far as the rest of those grappling monsters go everyone has a hard time with them. Even your twf will have a bad time of it, very likely will be slaughtered with the rest. At best he'll be able to do some damage before he dies while the others cant do any damage, but everyone has a contingency plan of some sort. Are you saying that your twf is better during a grapple than at other times? still doesnt seem to be.

All of the twf I have seen on the board are always far behind in every sense except in very specific circumstances. You really have to pull out some very specific builds in order to get the real power out of it, and outside of those it just doesnt work very well.


3 feats just to 'almost keep up sometimes' with someone who spent 0

That line alone says everything. If someone is going to pile up that many feats into a certain feat chain they should be 'better' at doing whatever they are trying to do than someone else going along a similar line. If they only come 'up to par', which from what I've seen hasnt even been shown by all of your examples, then something is seriously wrong.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Sure. I'd recommend Combat Reflexes and Close Quarters Fighting (Sword and Fist or Complete Warrior depending upon the edition). However, considering the lower dexterity of many ThF characters, Combat Reflexes is often a very suboptimal choice for them.

Alternately, the ThF could take Imp Unarmed Strike, Imp Grapple, and Clever Wrestling (MotW or Complete Warrior) to improve his grapple check.

The ability to full attack with your specialty form of melee while grappled is a very significant, far more impressive than the advantage gained by the THF taking Close Quarter Fighting. You also keep assuming the THF can Power Attack while that feat never shows up in your 3-0 score on feats. I would rate CQF as an outright necessity for mid-high level THF characters because they have much fewer options for pumping up AC.

Suddenly the score becomes 3-2.

 

[Scion]

The ability to full attack with your specialty form of melee while grappled is a very significant,

Full attack? only if you are useing two small weapons.. definately not gaurenteed, although usually a better plan. All of your attacks are at a -4 penalty, your ac (the much vaunted large dexterity) is shot, the creature grappling the twf is still going to eat him alive. The twf build might do more damage than the thf while grappled, but then there are a lot of ways around being grappled, especially for higher level characters. Have to be, grappling is deadly, even for the twf.

You also keep assuming the THF can Power Attack while that feat never shows up in your 3-0 score on feats. I would rate CQF as an outright necessity for mid-high level THF characters because they have much fewer options for pumping up AC.

Suddenly the score becomes 3-2.

The thf has at least 3 extra feats open, where these may be is hard to say. Most wind up taking power attack, it is incredible for their build after all.

If you take close quarter fighting (whatever that is) and power attack then you are up to 3-2 that is true. Of course the thf has two extra options above and beyond twf, able to do more things. Remember that much vaunted 'flexibility' that was being thrown around earlier? Seems to me that the thf has more options, he even still has one more feat to use! THF is still ahead on options, ahead on damage, ahead on money, and ahead on other combat options such as disarming and sundering. How much farther ahead does thf have to get before twf will get the boost it needs?