Damage Reduction vs. Two Weapon Fighting

[RangerWickett]

We could fix a mild part of this if Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, etc. applied to the style you fight with, and not just the weapon.

Thus, you could pick Style Focus (Longsword/Shortsword), or Style Focus (Rapier/Whip), or Greater Style Specialization (Unarmed). That would let people dual wield longsword-shortsword (a somewhat feasible style) without suffring inordinately.

 

[Scion]

DR is supposed to mess with 2 weapon fighters more than 2 handed fighters. Each style has strengths and weaknesses. One weakness of two weapon fighting is that it deals less damage per attack ... and thus has more trouble beating DR.

If every style has weaknesses, what is the weakness of thf?

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Well, its weaknesses are somewhat diminished by the animated shield but, in no particular order:

AC--the typical two handed weapon fighter has great difficulty attaining anything better than a passable AC. The lack of a shield, buckler, or defensive feats make THF, without exception, the most offensively oriented of the fighting styles. (TWF can use a buckler, Two Weapon Defense, or a defending off-hand weapon for AC; the ThF can't).

Premium on strength--the typical ThF has a very high strength score and necessarily so. His style depends upon dishing out as much damage as possible and as quickly as possible. Since he only benefits once from WS and GWS, he gets most of his damage from his strength bonus. Of course, all melee fighters depend upon strength but the ThF needs more than other fighting styles in order to remain competitive. His lower AC means that he will take damage more quickly than other fighters and consequently, he needs to dish out damage much more quickly if he's to maintain an advantage.

Grappling--the ThF's weapons are not usable in a grapple. Most TWF characters wield two light weapons and are thus able to continue attacking in a grapple. Most TwF sword and board fighters are also able to attack in a grapple (either light weapon+heavy shield or light shield+one handed weapon--either way, there's one weapon available for attacking).

If every style has weaknesses, what is the weakness of thf?

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I don't remember the disproportionate advantage of power attack ever being shown to enable TWF characters to do significantly more damage than THF characters except under very carefully controlled circumstances. (Assuming fighters or rangers rather than rogues since sneak attack has such a large effect upon the damage advantages of TWF/THF that it obscures the effect of power attack). And TWF characters would need to significantly outdamage THF characters in order to modify game balance.

As I recall the trends in analyses that did not include PA, TWF, could only equal or slightly exceed THF at a few specific instances--4th level (weapon specialization), 8th level (Imp TWF), and possibly 12th level (if GTWF was allowed). Otherwise, the advantage stayed with THF by a small margin--well at least the margin was small if the TWF used a double sword or orc double axe, it was bigger with shortswords. (3.5 GWS and core GTWF, allow TWF to take a slightly more sizable lead at the relevant levels and hold it a little longer but other 3.5 changes (such as the inability to do the haste partial charge+full attack) emphasize the disadvantages of TWF). Unless the Power Attack differential made very significant differences in that calculation (something I never observed it to do--singly or cumulatively), I would not consider it to unbalance TWF vis a vis THF or sword and shield. (TWF, does, after all, take up a lot of feats).

Balance has to take into account a lot of issues that are campaign specific. For instance, if there is only 1 weapon in the entire campaign setting, two weapon fighting is pretty useless.

However, demonstrating a disproportionate effect that significantly modifies expected damage per round in common melee situations that are likely to be found in most camapigns (for example, characters of X level versus CR X monsters from the MM analyzed over a spectrum of levels/CRs 1 - 20) can show an imbalance in games that tend to use MM monsters of CR = party level.

That analysis was done back in the 3.0/3.5 transition period. I read a number of them and worked a few examples up myself. They were far from scientifically perfect, but they were good enough to show the trends.

My point was not to challenge anybody's ability to do math. My point was to say that most people don't notice the cumulative effect that power attack and two weapon fighting created because the damage per attack was not ludicrously high. It was only the cumulative effect of the attacks that made the damage unreasonable.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

twf takes a minimum of 3 feats to use at all, vs thf 0.

omments ridletwf feats have large requirements, like dex of 19+. That means you will need a very high dex and str, or yet another feat on weapon finese but putting yourself even farther behind in damage. These feats all represent diminishing returns also.

There are more things on both sides.. but I think that the high feat and stat requirements say a lot right there.

On one hand, yes, after spending 3 feats it would seem a character has earned the right to feel outright superior at something. Doing damage, perhaps?

On the other hand, there seems to be a degree of neglect to the other styles that skews the big picture. Where is my Improved Shield Play feat for a bonus to AC for the sword & board fighters? Your feats are much better at boosting your favorite style than mine -- I get none.

As for the stat reqs, only the first one is meaningful. If you have a 15 Dex early in your career, you are almost certainly going to meet the later reqs even without prompting.

 

[Darklone]

Another thing: CW has yet another idea how to fix TWF: The style feats. You think that's a good idea to make TWF combos more interesting? It costs yet another feat adding to the usually steep prerequisites.

 

[Plane Sailing]

We could fix a mild part of this if Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, etc. applied to the style you fight with, and not just the weapon.

Thus, you could pick Style Focus (Longsword/Shortsword), or Style Focus (Rapier/Whip), or Greater Style Specialization (Unarmed). That would let people dual wield longsword-shortsword (a somewhat feasible style) without suffring inordinately.

I think this is an excellent idea, and one that I'll introduce into my campaign. The balancing downside is that if you only have one of the weapons in hand you don't get the benefit.

 

[Plane Sailing]

and I would probably still have a chart going only by the size of weapon you use. Something like no penalties if off-hand weapon is light, and a -2/-2 if off-hand weapons is not. But one question...how would you gain extra attacks from it? What kind of progression would you use? Or would you simply get one additional attack, no more as you level? I would really like to hear your reply to this Plane Sailing...

My idea would be that the basic "1 additional attack with off hand weapon" would be free, but the standard penalty to both weapons still applies as per normal.

I'd still leave in the ITWF and GTWF feats as options that could be taken to increase the number of attacks.

- as I said, a really minimal change to the current rules!

 

[orangefruitbat]

Tactical feats change the game

Elusive target pretty much hoses all those crazy power-attacking, two-handed sword barbarians. What, they lose all the benefit of power attacking? Too bad.

Wheras, two sword parries and shields never go out of style.

 

[Kemrain]

I've posted my TWF ideas in the thread below, though no one's commented on them.

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=74588

I give all your iterative attacks simply by taking TWF, and throw in a feat that allows you to make one attack with both weapons, that counts as a 2HW for the purposes of Power attack and DR and all that. If you're spending feats on it, you should get some versatility out of the deal.

- Kemrain the Interested.